Subscribe to this
Appropriate Mixer Speeds for Bread
Hi Rose,
I am an experienced home cook (actually a "foodie"), but not a baker, who is finally ready to tackle yeast breads. Over the years I have avoided yeast breads due to lack of time and patience. Truth be told, yeast dough intimidates me! I have purchased a new Kitchen Aid Artisan Stand Mixer (5 quart). I've also armed myself with your recent book, "The Bread Bible" and am ready to venture into the area of dough using starters or bigas.
However, I do have one initial concern and that has to do with the speed at which the dough is mixed. On page 50 in your book, you recommend using speed #4 on a Kitchen Aid for kneading dough (speed #2 if a stiff dough). The instruction manual which came with my KA mixer states in several places NOT to go beyond speed #2 when mixing yeast dough's.
So my question is: With your vast experience, is it possible to indeed mix yeast dough at speed #4 or should I follow the instruction manual and never exceed speed #2? Secondly, what qualifies a "stiff dough"? Kitchen Aid doesn't seem to qualify, i.e., the manual offers the caveat for mixing "yeast dough" in general not to exceed speed #2.
I've read your book through, now I look forward to using it as intended. I've also enjoyed your PBS series in its entirety, "Baking Magic with Rose Levy Beranbaum". You are, indeed, a wonderful instructor and a great source of inspiration. I hope to make beautiful baguettes with your help. Thanks for all you do.
Sincerely,
Penny
dear penny,
this is a very important question that several people have asked since the book first cake out. It is my understanding (and practice) that kitchen aid recommends no higher than speed #2 because if the dough is stiff it wil, over time,l wear out the motor. for many doughs, however, using speed #2 would require extremely long beating in order to develop the gluten adequately—maybe as long as 20 minutes, during which you should never walk away from the mixer as it could fall off the counter. I think it is necessary to trust one’s judgement here. a bagel, for example, is a dry, stiff dough, and if you used a high speed you would actually hear the motor straining. if ever you hear this sound you will recognize it and should immediately lower the speed.
I hope you enjoy your adventures in bread baking. as I’m working on a new cake book, I am enjoying baking cakes but sneak in an occasional bread just because I love making it so much.
best baking,
rose
Send to a Friend
Print
Post/Read Comments
Digg
de.licio.us
Facebook
StumbleUponTrackBack
TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/blog/mt-tb.cgi/22
Send to a Friend
Comments
Guess I posted my question in the wrong place earlier. Your bread bible book along with other bread authors refer to biga, sponge,poolish, preferment, pate permente - Now I want to use Sourdough instead of all those. Can you please help me and let me know how to go about the substition? Im fairly new in the bread baking department and my husband and I really love sourdough. There's so many recipes in your Bread Bible and I don't know what to do. Appreciate your guidance. Thanks.
Reply to this Posted by: amy | May 28, 2008 4:51 PM #
thanks matthew and david, you don't mention what kind of flour you're using and whether you weight or measure and if you measure how you measure!
Reply to this Posted by: rose levy beranbaum | April 30, 2008 1:36 PM #
I can think of two things--you may not be baking the bread long enough or to a high enough internal temperature--or are you slicing the bread before you allow it to cool for 1-2 hours?
Reply to this Posted by: Matthew | April 30, 2008 1:17 PM #
Hi Rose,
I love the your Bread Bible and have now been baking bread two to three times a week for a couple of month. However, I'm have a little trouble with the basic artisan recipe. When finished, my bread seems just a little too moist; for instance, if you press your finger into a slice slightly, it's doesn't bounce back and forms a quasi-paste texture. The loaf tastes great, there are plenty of bubbles and the crust is fantastic, but this moisture problem is driving me crazy. I've tried reducing the hydration to no avail. Is it possible that I'm over kneading the bread? Any tips you can offer will be greatly appreciated.
Reply to this Posted by: david | April 30, 2008 12:25 AM #
i wrote the same thing in the book! and if using part whole wheat or lots of grains it never forms a good window.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | December 12, 2007 9:01 PM #
Maybe it is just me, but I haven't found the window pane test to be that reliable, although it seems to be a widely recommended technique.
Reply to this Posted by: Matthew | December 12, 2007 8:44 PM #
i addressed all this in the bread bible. you can't go from higher speeds to lower as you "unmix" the dough. my dough does not exceed 80F. you'll see when you read through the techniques that with each machine i advise at what temperature to begin mixing and how to have certain ingredients at the required temperature to achieve this.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | December 12, 2007 7:57 PM #
Rose,
I am confused. You suggest mixing ( by KA) at Speed 4 . The higher the speed, the higher the dough temperature, the higher the probability of damaging the gluten, and developing "off flavors". What about the following as a suggestion: mix dough with cold water (say 60*-65*); then mix at Speed 2 making sure that dough temp. does not exceed 80*; if it does, slow down to Stir or stop. Allow dough to cool down. Then restart or finish by hand. Mix initially for 5 minutes. Perform windowpane test. This test will tell you if additional mixing is required or not.
Reply to this Posted by: Jerry C Iacono | December 12, 2007 7:28 PM #
the reason is two fold--over 90 degrees can produce off flavors and also it will rise more quickly thus NOT producing the complex flavors you desire.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | December 12, 2007 1:13 PM #
It is my understanding that doughs after kneading should not be more than 78-80 degrees for fermentation. I am using the straight dough method. So why is that when the dough that comes out of the mixer at 85-90 degrees has a volume and texture that is better than bread that is fermenting at 78-80 degrees?
Reply to this Posted by: herb | December 11, 2007 3:38 PM #
Jerry,
That is a hydration level that I can knead by hand, although not easily, so I think your mixer should certainly be able to handle it. I would read the thread above and try increasing the speed to 4.
Reply to this Posted by: Matthew | December 5, 2007 9:12 AM #
I have been trying with no success to knead ( by KA mixer) dough containing 70% water (by weight) to obtain airy baguettes. The dough after 5 minutes of mixing (using dough hook), at Speed 2, is very loose (like slurry) and not manageable. Any suggestion on how I can do it? Should I cut back on water and add dough enhancer for airy baguettes?
Reply to this Posted by: Jerry C Iacono | December 4, 2007 7:16 PM #
I don't have a recipe for that kind of bread, but I do have an idea how to make crust tough and chewy: hi gluten flour, and prolonged contact with steam. Check out the steamer that posted on this blog. If you leave the lid on the first 20 minutes of baking it will increase these qualities in the crust.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | January 30, 2007 1:13 PM #
Dear Rose,
In the Chicago area there is a bread called "Baltic Rye" or "Lithuanian Rye". It is a light rye with a dense crumb with a tough, chewy, dark (almost burnt), delicious crust. I have tried many rye bread recipes but none come close. Do you have a "Baltic Rye" recipe? If not, how would you make a crust which is tough and chewy?
Thank you for your wonderful book "the bread bible".
Rye bread lover,
Jerry
Reply to this Posted by: Jerry Gayda | January 30, 2007 1:05 PM #
it dissipates completely on baking.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | January 26, 2007 9:37 AM #
Rose,
I want to ask a question about the recipe you have in your bread book for making pretzel bread. The rolls require a lye bath, before baking. Why is it that the solution that you shouldn't touch with your fingers is OK to eat after baking the rolls?!
Reply to this Posted by: Mark | January 25, 2007 9:36 PM #
use BLEACHED flour
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | January 2, 2007 9:25 PM #
Rose,
I just finished making a quick bread. I had the same thing happen with this loaf that happens with other quick breads I make (e.g. banana bread). The baked bread "sinks" in the middle. The texture and taste are fine. I'm using a 9x5 bread pan which is the pan size the recipes often specify. Am I doing something wrong? If so, what? I would like a beautifully rounded top on my quick bread; is this possible?
Sincerely,
Perplexed in Illinois
Reply to this Posted by: Perplexed in Illinois | January 2, 2007 9:23 PM #
Hello Rose,
Firstly, let me say that I've made many a wonderful loaf from your 'Bible'. It's part of my quintet of resources along with "Bread Baker's Apprentice", "Village Baker", 'Bread' by Jeffrey Hamelman, and the original bible by Raymond Calvel. The last three years have brought me a great deal of knowledge about bread baking. I've reached a point where my breads (mixed in a KA mixer and baked in a standard home oven) are now as good, and often better, than those found in professional artisan bakeries. If it were only I extolling these virtues I could be rightly accused of arrogance. However, when accolades abound from friends, restaurants, and professional bakers I feel a tremendous wave of pride. What a wonderful feeling to see the look on a persons face the first time they bite into a beautiful loaf.
I do have a question for you that I'm hoping you could answer, or, at least, point me in the right direction. I'm looking to replace my 6 Qt KA with something more powerful, with larger capacity, and with more reliability. I want to move away from the planetary type action to the more effective spiral mixer. The two mixers that fit the bill are Electrolux DLX2000 and Bosch Compact series. I've read excellent feedback from consumers for the DLX and some for the Compact. What would be better is to get input from a professional regarding dough development, oxidation, etc. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Franc
Reply to this Posted by: Franc Gregorin | November 17, 2006 3:51 PM #
thank you for sharing--i love neat tips like this!
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | October 18, 2006 6:18 PM #
Hey Rose,
I recently bought The Bread Bible and have been really enjoying it. I thought I'd pass along an alternative to the proofing box that I've found pretty useful.
For hearth type breads that can rise on the sheet, instead of building a plexi box like suggested in your book, I place the shaped dough on a 11x15 small baking sheet and use a Rubbermaid 2.4gal container as a lid. The edges of the container fit just inside the lip of the baking sheet. Fill a small cup with hot water (I use the plastic container that paper muffin cups come in) and place it under the 'proofer' between the loaves. I will proof up to 4 pans simultaneously like this while the oven preheats.
thanks again for a fabulous tome!
Reply to this Posted by: Jeff Roberson | October 18, 2006 2:26 PM #
i actuall answered this from your second posting but wanted to add that if the starter is doubling you are not replenishing it too often.
the focaccia recipe was posted many weeks if not months ago--it's from primo restaurant so put either of those two words int he search box on the left and you'll find it--it really is worth making!
thanks for asking about my back. two days ago i was so much better i stupidly crawled around o the floor trying to liberate an extension cord and twang went the other side but much much better and excercising to keep it that way.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | October 14, 2006 9:12 PM #
Hi Rose!
I emailed you several weeks back about my sourdough problems. I had obtained starter cultures of the "San franciso" variety from Sourdough Internationl. My first try with their recipe they sent failed terribly! Then I emailed you for help, used the recipe and techique in the Bread Bible and I had success! Anyhow, I have been baking about twice a week with the "Basic Sourdough" recipe from The Bread Bible with wonderful results! I always double or triple the recipe(I bake some for my in-laws too) and bake them in standard loaf pans most of the time for ease. I love letting them do a slow rise sometimes in the fridge overnight when I am time starved! Okay, finally, here is the problem now... I am finding that the bread is getting less and less sour. This last loaf, I found, the tang was barely noticable. I am converting my liquid starter each time to a stiff starter a day and sometimes two days before I mix the dough(with extra feedings, if needed to keep it going well). Is my starter(liquid) being replentished too frequently? The bread is wonderful, just not sour at all right now.
On another note, I noticed you said on an entry that you had a new recipe for focaccia coming up! Very interested in that! I have had more people ask for the recipe of the sheet focaccia that I make from your Bread Bible!
Oh! Last time you wrote back, you had a herniated disk that was causing you great pain, I hope that you are feeling better now! Take care and thank you for any advice that you may have for my sourdough problems!
stacy in
Oklahoma
Reply to this Posted by: stacy hawkins | October 12, 2006 2:58 PM #
if you give the bread two or three risings you will have a finer texture.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | August 28, 2006 9:36 PM #
Could you help me get a finer texture to my bread?
I use a bread machine and have good luck but I know that there is a way to make a finer texture bun. We had some at a wedding reception and it was as fine as an angel food cake. Delicious!
What needs to be done to arrive at such a texture. Thank you. Dorothy
Reply to this Posted by: Dorothy Harms | August 28, 2006 6:36 PM #
penny, as long as you can turn off the convection until the last 10 min. of baking when you want to blow out all that moist air!
i don't recommend a baking stone for breads that are rich with eggs and butter such as brioche because the bottom will brown too much
in my book "the bread bible" i specify baking stone each time i prefer to use it and do not list it in the equipment under the recipe when it is not desirable.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | November 20, 2005 5:51 PM #
Hello Again Rose,
Thanks so much for the response re the speed for mixing bread doughs. I have a couple of other questions in the bread baking area. I have all options available to me but I would like to know what your recommendations re these specifics.
Do you recommend using the convection oven versus conventional oven when baking bread?
Do you recommend a baking stone always?
Do you recommend both these options together or individually or not at all, simply a conventional oven with no stone?
So many questions, so many recipes . . . so little time! Many thanks.
Penny
Reply to this Posted by: Penny | November 20, 2005 2:38 PM #