Rye Bread
Dec 16, 2005 | From the kitchen of Rose
Gale Question:
I have used your Jewish Rye Bread recipe many, many times and everyone loves it. One question I have--no matter how long I let it rise, it tends to only rise to 3" and tends to spread to 8". How can I get a bread that is smaller in diameter and rises to the 3 and 1/2" that is indicated in your recipe?
Rose Reply:
thanks--it's one of my favorite breads and i've been making it for many years. there is a mistake on the recipe--in step 2 i say to add the rye flour but there is no more rye flour to be added. are you getting the same weight of finished dough that i indicate? if you are not weighing you may be getting a different amount of flour and liquid which could affect the rise. but if it is very smooth and elastic and your bread flour is under a year old you should get the same results i do.
i wrote on the recipe that my finished loaf is 7-3/4 inches by 4 inches high. if yours is spreading 1/4 inch more that is hardly significant. but the 1 inch less in height is. it could be you are not getting enough oven spring. are you preheating the oven and baking stone for at least 45 minutes? are you steaming the oven? all this helps a great deal to get the maximum rise!
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Elizabeth
04/07/2011 10:57 AM
I just made "Levy's" Real Jewish Rye Bread again the other day. As always, it is brilliant!! Thank you a thousand times for this recipe - it alone is worth the price of The Bread Bible. (And of course, I have made other things in the book as well.)
Unlike the others, I'm thrilled that the measurements are in grams and am most grateful that you took the time to put in the conversions. It makes so much more sense to weigh the ingredients (especially the salt - we use Kosher salt) rather than use spoons.
The only changes I've made to the rye bread recipe are to use all-purpose flour in the starter, active dry yeast and the tiniest hint of wholewheat flour in the final dough.
Did I remember to mention that we love this bread?
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Fran Costigan
08/15/2009 10:43 AM
As a culinary educator and vegan pastry chef, I too think our system is fine. However, I do need an accurate conversion app or chart. Recipes come from around the globe. I have a tester in Dublin!
Thanks for any help.
Fran
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Stephen
07/27/2009 04:41 PM
Regarding Pumpernickel, in place of the coffee, cocoa and caramel powder I have been using Black Roasted Barley, available from any Homebrewing supplier for about $2/lb. 20g, powdered fine in a blade type coffee grinder is sufficient for one loaf. I have also wondered if freeze dried coffee substitute would work. Kraft has ceased production of Postum but Pero is still on the market (no affiliation)it is made from Chicory, Barley and Rye.
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Anonymous
06/12/2009 12:22 AM
The rest of the world can keep the metric system, I personally have no use for it and I know nobody who does. Our system works just fine, so why change it?
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Matthew
02/19/2008 09:45 AM
You must have found the caramel powder Louise, because you certainly managed to get that deep dark pumpernickel color. Did the bread rise faster with the extra starter? I'm not sure about the bagels, but it would probably be a good idea to add some vital wheat gluten if you don't have high-gluten flour. The acid in starter does break down gluten eventually, but it usually takes a while--longer than the normal rise cycle. I wonder if having more starter sped up this process? It would be interesting to try it with the regular pumpernickel recipe and compare the differences.
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Louise
02/18/2008 10:54 PM
I baked the sourdough pumpernickel with too much starter (because I did not see the correction on the website) and it turned out great.
I made a loaf with raisins. I also made rolls with raisins and rolls with onions, caraway seeds and a little garlic - really delicious and as good as anything I have had in my favorite delis or restaurants. To make the onion filling, I added dehydrated onions and caraway seeds to store bought minced garlic - using the oil in the garlic to hydrate the onions. I used more onions than garlic. I put a little in the dough but I also rolled out the dough for the roll, put a shmear of the onion mixture and then rolled it up like they do in the delis. Here is a picture:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23486197@N03/2276567326/
The bagels just came out of the oven but I do not have high hopes for them. When I boiled them, they did not have the elasticity of the Levy's Bagels - just seemed like rolls shaped like bagels (which is exactly what they are!). Here is a picture:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23486197@N03/2275777449/
I wonder if I should have used high gluten flour? Anyone have any idea?
Actually, I just tasted a bagel and they taste delcious - just not like a NY bagel - more like an Einstein bagel (bready). Boiling the dough seems to have enhanced the flavor.
Of course, I baked the rolls and bagels less than the suggested time for a loaf, I just checked it with my instant read thermometer to 190 degrees.
I will definitely make the sourdough pumpernickel again. It is a multi day/ multi hour process but does not take a lot of work. Also, I definitely prefer it with the addtion of the rasins or onions.
Rose - thanks for another great recipe!
Louise
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Louise
02/18/2008 11:33 AM
Oh no - I just saw the correction to the sour dough pumpernickel that says (if using mixer) that I should have used 270 grams of starter but I used the 360 grams on page 462. In fact, I doubled the recipe so now I have 2 doughs rising, one with raisins (ala Joe's Stone Crab raisin pumpernickel rolls) and one with onions and garlic (ala the Rascal House rolls). But the dough has 33 percent more sour dough starter than it should. HELP!!! ANY SUGGESTIONS? Should I bother continuing the rise and baking it off? Louise
PS - I am going to write the corrections in my book right now.
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Rose
02/18/2008 09:44 AM
louise, i can't predict the behavior of the bread doing variations such as how long you let it sit refrigerated at each stage. there will be taste differences but i can tell you that dough is quite forgiving and you will learn how you like it best by doing it. i have never used it to make bagels. when i test a recipe for the first time i try many ways--i keep some of the dough to bake right away for ex., some to let rest before boiling, some to goil 30 seconds, some to bake 1 minute and that's how i am able to give you my best and most reliable instructions. if you want to create new variations that i haven't as yet offered this is what you will need to do and hopefully share with everyone.
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Louise
02/18/2008 05:33 AM
A little more information about soudough pumpernickel please. In a post a few weeks ago you suggested that the pumpernickel dough would make good bagels.
At what stage would I shape the bagel?
Should I shape it at the shaping stage for the loaf (at the 5 hour rise)?
If so, can I put the shaped bagels in the refrigerator over night?
Then I assume I would take the bagels out of the refrigerator for 1 - 1 1/2 hours before I boiled and baked them. Any idea on how long to boil and bake?
thanks!!!! Louise
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Louise
02/18/2008 05:32 AM
A little more information about soudough pumpernickel please. In a post a few weeks ago you suggested that the pumpernickel dough would make good bagels.
At what stage would I shape the bagel?
Should I shape it at the shaping stage for the loaf (at the 5 hour rise)?
If so, can I put the shaped bagels in the refrigerator over night?
Then I assume I would take the bagels out of the refrigerator for 1 - 1 1/2 hours before I boiled and baked them. Any idea on how long to boil and bake?
thanks!!!! Louise
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Louise
02/17/2008 11:31 PM
Rose - please provide more detail on what you mean by breaking the pumpernickel at the 5 hour rise. My starter is fermenting for the 2nd time as I write this and I have been trying to figure out how I will get all those risings done in one day when I came across your lifesaving response to the prior question.
1. Would you put it in the refrigerator as soon as you shape it? If so, will it double in the refrigerator - which it would have if it rose for 4 - 5 hours on the counter?
2. How long can it stay in the refrigerator. Can it stay a day or 2? Will stayng in the refrigerator enhance the flavor like you describe with other doughs (like challah and hearth bread).
thanks, Louise
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Rose
02/08/2008 12:50 PM
i would break at the 5 hour shaped rise. usually bread takes 1 to 1 1/2 hours to warm up from refrigeration--less if you put it in a proofer type of environment such as the microwave (not on!) with a container of very hot water to achieve around 80F.
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Matthew
02/08/2008 12:28 PM
Rose, I wonder if you could tell me how you normally schedule the sourdough pumpernickel. The mixing, rising, and baking day is about 16.5 hours, which I find difficult to fit into one day. I see a couple of places where the process could be broken--either the 8 hour penultimate rise or the 5 hour shaped rise. Do you stop at either of these places for refrigeration, and about how much extra time should I add when refrigerated?
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SteveR
09/10/2007 07:05 AM
Thanks!
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Matthew
09/09/2007 10:23 AM
Steve,
It won't be hard to convert this. You just need to do a bit of math to figure it out. This will be easy if you are doing your recipe by weight--by volume will be a little trickier.
If you are using a liquid starter, it should be about 1/2 water and 1/2 flour (by weight); if it is a stiff starter, is will be about 2/3 flour and 1/3 water. Depending on which type of starter you are using, add that amount of those ingredients back to your main recipe.
To create a sponge, mix all of your liquid with about 40% of the flour, about half of the yeast, and any sweeteners.
The only other thing you have to figure out is the yeast. I checked and Rose uses between .64% and .76% instant yeast (% of the weight of the flour) for her rye and pump breads. So, for every 100g of flour, you would use about a scant 1/4 tsp. of instant yeast. If you want to calculate it more precisely, 1/16 tsp. yeast weighs .2 gram.
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SteveR
09/09/2007 09:47 AM
I have a black rye (pumpernickel style) that is a sour dough. I don't make it often enough to keep a starter going. When I do make bread, I have the time to do a pre-ferment. So... does anyone have any thoughts on how to convert a sour dough formula to a sponge or pate fermentee type formula?
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Rose
08/22/2007 05:19 PM
i have no way of knowing where she posted --you should post this comment on the same thread to increase the chances of her seeing it!
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Diana Artemis
08/22/2007 05:17 PM
I saw that Barbara DEFUNIAK posted on this sight. I baby sat her children a bizzion years ago. She was very kind to me and I would love to get in touch with her. Her children are Kathrine, Andy and David.
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Rose
04/15/2007 10:55 AM
it's considered to be a flaw but most bread bakers think of it as a desirable one! i think it's the alcohol that occurs during the fermentation that rises to the outside of the dough causing the attractive design. your bread is stunning by the way.
in case you don't subscribe to this blog you won't be alerted to my current posting that i will be away until may 1 without internet access. just wanted to be sure you knew why this is my last posting until then.
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Matthew
04/15/2007 12:51 AM
I have a food science question for you. I recently made your rye bread and did the final shaped rise overnight in the fridge (following your general instructions for that in the Bread Bible).
I noticed that there were tiny little bubbles on the finished boule. They don't bother me, in fact I find them somewhat attractive in a rustic way, but I'm wondering if you know what happens during the slow cold rise to cause this.
Here is a picture of my rye.
I also found a picture of someone else's potato rosemary bread with similar bubbles (they also did a slow final rise [retard] according to their description).
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Matthew
04/11/2007 12:14 AM
These are instructions for homemade caramel powder. This recipe produces 20 grams of powder, enough for one recipe of Rose's pumpernickel bread.
This is a photo of the process.
1. Pour 30 grams of corn syrup (a little less than 1/8th cup) into a 2-cup glass measure.
2. Microwave on high for 2-3 minutes, watching carefully for when the syrup turns to dark brown/black.
3. Remove from microwave and allow to cool for 30 minutes (be careful as the container and its contents are extremely hot).
4. Break caramel (black jack) into pieces, place in a chopper or processor, and grind into a fine powder for 10-15 seconds.
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Rose
04/10/2007 10:25 PM
it is sometimes hard to find this flour even in a big city but easy to get via the internet! be sure to store it in the freezer to prevent rancidity.
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Jennifer
04/09/2007 10:34 AM
Help! I want to make the pumpernickel bread, but I live in a small town in Indiana that the groceries don't carry pumpernickel flour. Any suggestions as to where people find it i.e. Whole Foods. I'm willing to travel to locate if someone knows of a place in Louisville or St. Louis, or Indianapolis. Also what flavor of molasses. Mild, full or black - something. Yes, my grocery has 3 flavors o molasses but no pumpernickel flour or instant expresso powder. Instead of making caramel powder - where might I buy it. Again - not really good in the kitchen. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
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Anonymous
04/08/2007 12:54 PM
Oh my, Rose! I just made your pumpernickel bread for the first time and it was heavenly! What is that other pumpernickel I have been eating? It pales in comparison to the real thing! I can't wait to try the sourdough version.
I couldn't find caramel powder locally, so I made some at home. I simply poured enough corn syrup to just cover the bottom of a 2-cup Pyrex measuring cup. I microwaved it for about 2-3 minutes, watching carefully for when it turned very dark brown/black (it happened rather quickly). I let it cool, broke the black jack into pieces, and ground it to a powder in the processor. I came up with 20 grams of powder. I will measure how much syrup I used the next time I make if anyone is interested. The finished bread had a wonderful dark color and there was no bitter flavor.
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Rose
04/02/2007 12:41 PM
brian you're absolutely right!
jennifer, your notes does my heart good!
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Jennifer
04/02/2007 06:26 AM
Rose - Thank you for your bread bible. I saw you make your Mushroom bread on the PBS show seasonings and was fascinated. I'm a disaster in the kitchen when it comes to cooking meals, but with your recipes and explanations, my breads come out perfect! I just love making bread and I'm not such a disaster in the kitchen after all.
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Brian
04/01/2007 11:27 PM
I think one of the problems with introducing the metric system in the U.S. is that people try to convert it back to the U.S. customary units instead of learning the metric units themselves. It's confusing to try to figure out how many centimers are in a foot or how many grams are in a pound since it is not a straightforward conversion. I wish we could just bite the bullet and convert everything over to metric in one fell swoop. Once people understand the metric measures for what they are themselves, rather than in relation to another measure(for example, everybody now knows about how much volume is in 2 liters of soda), it would probably be pretty easily adopted.
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Rose
03/31/2007 06:20 PM
well those in favor of it praise the easy to manage units of 10 but i finally put together in my brain what really matters to me!
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Patrincia
03/31/2007 05:07 PM
Thanks so much! (now I really can't wait for the new book to be released)
Your paragraph is very interesting - I never really knew anything about the metric system before.
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Rose
03/31/2007 04:15 PM
thank you patrincia!!! as a reward i'm going to give you a paragraph i just wrote--the final one in the book--that concerns weights vs. measure and the soul of the metric system:
I list water here because of the significant way in which it relates to volume and weight.
One of the beauties of the metric system is that it has terms for volume which are milliliters and liters and different terms for weight which are grams and kilograms. The metric system is based on water, i.e. the volume value for water is equal to the weight value (100 mililliters is equal to 100 grams).
Our avoir dupoir system is less elegant and somewhat confusing because not only does the word ounce refer to both volume and weight, 1 fluid ounce of water does not equal 1 ounce in weight but rather 1.042 ounces. So one 8 ounce in volume cup of water is actually equal to 8.33 ounces in weight. The Webster's American Dictionary definition of water is: 1 gallon=8.337 pounds(133.392 ounces). This divides down to 1 cup=8.337 ounces or 236.35 grams.
The metric system is a model of logic, symplicity and clarity, and I long for the day when it is embraced in this country.
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Patrincia
03/31/2007 04:07 PM
Danielle - here is Rose's definition of "scant" from a posting on June 28, 2006:
scant means "not quite" for example a scant tablespoon means not quite to the top.
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Danielle
03/31/2007 03:06 PM
What is a scant cup of sugar in baking??
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Rose
02/02/2007 11:25 AM
use a higher proportion of bread flour to rye.
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BARBARA DEFUNIAK
02/02/2007 11:20 AM
I am trying rye bread in my bread machine and it keeps falling - what can I do to maintain the rising?
Thanks
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Rose
01/01/2007 03:32 PM
franz, i hesitated to tell you about the starter bc it was so kind of you to try to be helpful the last thing i wanted to do was make you feel bad, and believe me i do sometimes make mistakes and/or the copy editor. the first and second printings of the bread bible were filled with little copy-editing errors most of which were corrected in the third printing. it's like writing a whole second book!
but just so you know your point is well taken--there is much confusion in our american system between volume ounces and weight ounces. in my next book i'm doing away with the term "liquid cup" which means a cup designed to measure liquids but not everyone knows this, and instead putting for ex. water: 1 cup (8 fluid ounces)8.2 ounces/236 grams
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Rose
01/01/2007 08:39 AM
thanks for the great report. actually i used to use the la cloche in the same way, letting the dough rise in it instead of preheating it as easier to handle. i'm so glad to hear it will work well with this method using a metal pot! very clever of you and i'm delighted to hear it worked so well brian!
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Brian
01/01/2007 02:27 AM
A report on the rye - a great success! This was my first recipe using the Bread Bible and everything went exactly as described. I didn't have access to a mixer so I did everything by hand. I let the sponge ferment for about an hour at room temp and then close to 24 in the fridge. The dough mixed exactly as described = a little sticky at first and then really easy to knead after letting it sit for 20 minutes. I used the Harvest King flour in place of the bread flour and then I baked it using the no-knead bread technique. I have been using my All-Clad 6 qt stockpot for the no-knead bread, so that's what I used. I preheated the oven for about at hour at 450 with a baking sheet on the lowest level and I also preheated the lid to the stockpot. I put the dough in the stockpot for it's final rise with some cornmeal on the bottom. When the dough was ready I put the stockpot in the oven on the preheated baking sheet, put on the preheated lid and cooked it for 15 minutes at 450, lowered the temp to 400 for 10 minutes, then removed the lid and cooked it for another 20 minutes (when I took off the lid, I could see the steam rise out of the stockpot). The bread rose beautifully and had a nice texture and golden brown crust.
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Anonymous
12/31/2006 01:57 PM
Franz, I have recently made sourdough culture from the Bread Bible which is active and have made several successful sourdough breads since. Rose's measurements and conversions are precise. As a matter of fact I just recently purchased a new scale and to test that it was weighing accurately I would measure by volume then weigh it on the scale amd the conversion was spot on. You will be very pleased with the results.
Oriana
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Steve
12/31/2006 01:11 PM
You tell them Rose. Patience is key. Knowledge of sours is the hidden secret to all sour based breads. Controlling,feeding,restoring are crucial. Sometimes you just have to start all over.
SR
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Rose
12/31/2006 11:12 AM
thank you for trying to be helpful but i have revisited these pages and they are all correct as stands. the first suggested correction you made that a scant cup of rye flour should be 10 ounces instead of 4.2 ounces is not correct. there is no flour that weighs 10 ounces per scant cup. the subsequent suggested corrects i think are confusing the starter weights with the added flour weights. i know it looks complicated but if you actually go through the process you will see that it is all exactly as stated originally. i had to take very great care that it would be correct bc i wanted it to work for everyone and in fact so far everyone who has tried it has succeeded. the only problem has been impatience! but when people persevere they all seem to end up with a viable starter! thanks for taking the time to report this to me just the same. i'm not saying i don't make mistakes--but not in this case!
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Franz Conrads
12/30/2006 09:16 PM
Hello Rose.
I bought your book "the bread bible" a few months ago.I wish to cogratulate you on your impessive book with the exquisite illustrations.About a month ago I read someone's comments about your book which were not very flattering.His main complaints were about measurment conversion. I thought, at first, that he may have been confused and perhaps mathematically challenged.But when I recently took a close look at your instructions for making a sourdough starter from scratch I foud that there is,indeed,some confusion about measurment conversions.Perhaps,this has already been brought to your attention. If not,here are my comments.On page 432,Day 1 it says:-a scant cup/4.2 ounces/120 grams organic rye flour-.
The 4.2 ounces should be more like 10 ounces.Later on it says:You will have about 1cup/8.5 ounces."Under Day 3 it says:-throw out about half of the starter(about half a cup-)which is more like 3/4 cup.Under day 5 it says:"-a scant 1/2cup/2ounces-".
Perhaps future editions could improve a little in the area of conversions.
Again congratulations on a beautiful and very instructive and helful book.
Best regards,Franz Conrads
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Rose
12/30/2006 06:49 PM
thanks steven for these helpful suggestions!
jana, my husband (from toronto) eats rye with sourcream and raw onion! so glad you're going to be making one of my absolutely fav. breads. in cae you don't have the 3rd printing with the correction pls note that the rye is only in the starter and not in the dough. for me it has just the right amount of rye flavor. if you want to increase it best to make the sourdough version as the acidity keeps it from getting gummy.
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Rose
12/30/2006 06:41 PM
brian i know JUST how you feel bc i myself am torn between the new cake book and baking more bread SO i do both and work all the time!
i've been using harvest king for artisan type breads and it works wonderfully for everything. for soft breads such as sandwich breads and pain de mie i prefer a lower protein flour. so yes to using it for the rye bread. i think the new no knead method will work wonderfully as long as you don't excede 400 degrees F. rye flour is more sensitive to burning. let us know how it goes!
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Jana
12/30/2006 11:53 AM
How a vegetarian would use rye bread?
My Lithuanian half would tell you to spread a little sour cream and add some course salt. YUMMY! Even a little butter and cheese is yummy - I ate it that way in Russia years and years ago.
Rose I just received your book for Christmas and I will be making your rye to
use up my sour cream! You inspire me.
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Steven Raab
12/30/2006 10:39 AM
Try "misting" the bread before placing into the oven. A little hand sprayer with some water.Also,if the dough is covered and has not developed a skin,you can brush the top with water.
Are you using a rye sour in your dough or just rye flour? With the different flours you need to adjust the amounts. Great ryes are made with clear flour, if avaliable.
For those of us who are looking for a good place to let your doughs rest and breads to proof, good to a kitchen remodeling shop and buy a maple drawer. One to put the breads in and a second to cover,keeps air tight and moist. I did this for some specialty breads that we make and it is a homerun.
SR
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Brian
12/29/2006 07:22 PM
Rose,
I received a blessing and a curse for Christmas - The Bread Bible! It's a blessing because I'm intrigued by baking bread and I wouldn't think of starting a new baking endeavor without your guidance. It's a curse because I'm still learning cake baking and I'm continuously experimenting with your recipes in the Cake Bible, so now I'm going to be twice as busy on the weekends!
Two quick questions. I'd like to make your rye bread and I'm visiting family that has limited kitchen supplies. 1) Can I use the Harvest King flour or should I get bread flour? 2) I don't have a baking stone or a cast iron skillet for putting ice in the oven. Could I use the technique for the no-knead NY Times bread of baking the rye bread initially in the Dutch oven?
Thanks,
Brian
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Rose
12/20/2005 05:12 PM
not everyone likes the flavor of rye. my recipe uses very little rye flour because though i love rye i don't like a lot of it in the bread which most commercial breads have.
you could try toasting it lightly and see if that improves the flavor.
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Ruchi
12/20/2005 01:56 PM
Hi,
I just bought a rye bread from market ( for the first time) and don't know how to eat it. Eating it raw did not taste that good, so had some with ranch.
I am a vegetarian and would like to know what is the best way to eat the Rye Bread. I was wandering should one put it in oven, or microwave it after applying the topings....Please suggest.
Ruchi
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