I baked the All-Occasion Downy Yellow Butter cake Sunday afternoon and iced the unrefrigerated cake layers the next day with the Neoclassic Buttercream.
I refrigerated the cake as I was taking it to a cake decorating class that evening and wanted the icing to harden. After class, I brought the cake home to taste the cake, and the cake was dry and crumbly. So I left the cake out all night and the next evening had another piece thinking it would warm up and the buttercream might moisten the cake. The icing separates from the cake and it's still dry. What did I do wrong. At this point, I won't make this cake recipe again.

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Bina, there is extensive discussion, links, and phone numbers where to get this. This is a Matfer brand made in France, you may be able to find a local professional pastry supplier that carries Matfer which is a well known brand among chefs. If you don make genoise, biscuit, chiffon, or oblivions, often, then holding your ka mixer whisk works, too.

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Hi Rose, (and everybody)

I have been following the Genoise thread with great interest and have picked up a lot of hints. I live in Hong Kong and the biggest whisk I can find here is about 8 inches which doesn't quite do the job. Obviously I will have to order one from the States. Can anyone help me with the details? Which website and what are the specifics? Thanks in advance.

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Sharon, for Genoise Classique you won't get big holes because whites and yolks are whipped together. Big holes are whites only.

If you sift the flour in as you fold, it will prevent 'flour' pebbles.

The balloon whisk needs to be a giant one, the diameter is described on Cake Bible. I get the one from JB Prince because it has the right flexibility and weight. A whisk this size would normally be too heavy it can hurt your wrist!

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Both your tips greatly appreciated!

I see..now I know how to remove those whipped egg white blobs and prevent those hideous holes! I'll try the classique genoise one more time and this time will give a good folding-in with a balloon whisk. Wish me luck!!!

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Sharon, here's what I do when I make a genoise: I always sift the flour onto the egg mixture when folding it in and I do it in two batches. It seems to help with eliminating those bits of flour.

Hector, I know using the KA beater is not recommended to fold in the flour but I had hurt my wrist and had no choice. That's how I got the idea to use the KA beater. I have to say though I get the recommended height. I don't know how or why but I do.
Just my two cents worth.......

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Sharon, you are my favorite friend.

I would never use my KA mixer at speed one to fold sponge cakes. You loose too much volume.

Regarding folding sponge cakes, I've been there. You don't need a Master's degree on flour sifting to fold good, but here some pointers:

On big holes. These are blobs of whipped egg white that remain unfolded. When you pour your batter onto your cake pan, look for these blobs, catch them and push them back to your bowl and destroy/fold! My Mom made near 1000 chiffon cakes during her life, and I always ran to the kitchen to watch her fold! She would never fold the whites completely, she held the bowl with one hand and pour the batter onto the pan, and with her other hand she held a rubber spatula and hunted for blobs (an icing spatula would work). She picked up blobs before it poured out, or up from the cake pan.

For Biscuit, sifting the flour onto the whipped yolks and let it sit while whipping whites, is a great trade secret shared by Rose on one of her books, she learned this in France.

For Angel Food Cake (watch video), run an icing spatula a few turns on your filled pan to cut any blobs.

For Moist Chocolate Genoise, stick your hand in the bowl, and with your fingers feel and smash the little pebbles at the bottom (much on this on this blog). Or let the batter sit in the bowl for a few minutes and discard the bottom part where the pebbles sit. Or cut off the bottom layer of cake where the pebbles sink.

If you think you will make sponge cakes part of your life, then getting JB Prince's giant balloon whisk is absolutely the best folding apparatus and method there is.

I've heard somewhere that Rose's upcoming new book is going to have a new take on this!

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Rozanne & Hector, thanks for your feeback!!

Hector, you have such amazing talent for baking! All your cakes are simply exquisite!!! Wish I was your neighbour...the constant aroma wafting in and yummy cakes to sample ;P

Rozanne, I'm really terrible at folding-in flour as those sponge cakes i baked before used to have such big holes when cut (resembling a block of cheese!!) and these would be filled with lumps of cooked, hardened flour!!) By the time all the hardened flour had been removed, there wasn't much cake to tuck into :(

Anyway, I tried baking the classique and chocolate genoise last week. Tried your method of whipping the eggs & sugar for a good 8 mins and then folded the sifted flour in with my KA mixer on speed no. 1. I allowed the mixer to turn for just a few rounds and then I finished the rest of the folding using a balloon whisk (not the biggest one though).

The genoise classique turned out great! The flour was folded in well and it was about 1 1/4" after both bottom and top crusts were removed. As for the chocolate genoise, i had teeny weeny clumps of flour though the height was a good 1.5" after both top & bottom were trimmed. Am just wondering if folding the flour in, in 2 batches would help to prevent these clumps as the classique genoise had the flour added in twice and when I tried it, the flour was mixed well.

Any thoughts on this?

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Roseanna, try watch Rose's video on flour and angel food cake, she uses the straightened slotted skimmer. It is a must, works much better than a large rubber spatula. Please be patient as the video is near 2 hours long.

There has been extensive discussion on this straightened slotted skimmer. An even best folding apparatus is the giant balloon whisk from JB Prince, I posted a picture of this. The balloon is so large (but lightweight) that when my brother saw it, he thought it was a weapon or something to hang on your roof.

http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2007/05/josephine_and_biscuit_de_savoi.html#comment-44237

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A slotted skimmer is a flat round straining type device for fishing items out of a hot liquid (like things being deep fried). You don't need to use a slotted skimmer for folding dry ingredients into a genoise. I've used rubber spatulas and balloon whisks...and both have worked perfectly fine.

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This is very helpful. I am not sure what a slotted skimmer is though. Would appreciate an answer. Thanks

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Sharon, Rozanne, I was reading the post right above you telling myself "wow, somebody else tried this" now knowing was me who posted that!

Correct, you don't heat the eggs for Moist Chocolate Genoise. The Understanding comments on the recipe may explain the reason "...contains a little less egg, more than double the water...." Also, this recipe doesn't use corn starch.

I do allow the eggs to reach room temp before whipping, I crack the cold eggs onto my mixer's bowl, cover with plastic wrap, wait and see that water condensation forms outside the bowl, and wait until the condensation has vanished .

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Sharon, I asked Rose the same question and this is what she wrote:

"rozanne, i tried heating the eggs and it makes no difference for this cake."

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Hi! On reading everyone's comments about the moist chocolate genoise, I'm really keen to give it a shot.

Was just comparing the instructions for the classique and golden genoise with the moist chocolate one, and it seems that I don't need to heat the eggs and sugar over a pan of simmering water before whisking it. Has this step been accidentally left out or it's meant to be this way?

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I attempted to make Moist Chocolate Genoise yesterday. Thinking that folding the flour is still an issue, I decided to make the Genoise with a chiffon preparation. Big mistake, but the end results were still very delicious. I beated half of the egg yolks with the cooled chocolate, added the flour and 2 more eggs (the flour was making the mixture so heavy so I had to add more eggs). I also "cheated" and added 10 grams of baking powder to this chocolate mix. Then I whipped the rest of the eggs (whites and the remainder egg yolks), but it never reached the high peak texture, was very liquid and low in volume (I beated for about 20 minutes until the volume was descent); I am assuming that the shortage of egg yolks made this whip so thin and liquid (like when you whip egg whites for chiffon, you are told to make sure there isn't any grease or yolks otherwise it won't reach peaks). In the oven, the cake rose high like a chiffon, but when I cooled it, it collapsed. I ended up with a genoise that had a layer of moist chocolate... I am telling everyone this is my fudge chocolate cake... Indeed was still delicious. Then a couple of hours later, I decided to make the genoise using the traditional way, and it came out PERFECT. I think I solved the issue of the flour incorporation, by using the 'less-angled' slotted skimmer, and by really giving it a good fold without fear of loosing air; the whole egg and sugar whip is pretty sturdy. I added the flour as indicated on Cake Bible, and gave it a good fold and turn with the slotted skimmer. Then when I folded the chocolate mix, I poured it very slowly and kept folding rapidly.

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I couldn't find the Daily News article you mentioned. Did you post it yet? It sounds really good.

Marilyn

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I have made the Triple Chocolate Cake over 10 times since the year 2003. It is the BEST chocolate cake in the world, the flavor is intense, bitterweet right, and it doesn't have a chemical after taste so common on store bough chocolate cakes. Making the genoise is easy, but the most difficult stage is folding the flour. Almost all the time I have little pebbles of flour. I follow Rose's recommendation to use a metal slotted skimmer with its handle bent to less angle it (the slotted skimmer works much better than any large spatula), and I also don't fold all the flour in until the last addition. When making the Triple Chocolate Cake, Rose says to cut off the tops and sides of the genoise layers, and this is where the flour pebbles accumulate, so at the end my layer is near pebble free. I will try the dip in finger method. My mother used to say that when you do chocolate genoise "you don't need to be so critical folding in all the flour" otherwise you end up with a chocolate tart. My mother would pop the flour pebbles as she sees them pouring into your cake pans; as you pour the batter on to your cake pans you can use a spatula to do the last folding as the batter drops on the pan, "catch the flour pebbles here." Lastly, the Triple Chocolate Cake is a complex result of different elements, that a few flour pebbles have never scared any of my friends; they are so entertained and amazed with the praline sheets, with the ganache, with the Frangelico, and with the extra chunks of candied hazelnuts I place on the table, that the flour pebbles is just fun for all. HOME MADE they say in admiration. I bow.

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When making a batter bread, like banana or zucchini, tiny flour clumps, the size of a pin head, appear in the batter and in the final, baked loaf. Why is this happening and what can I do to eliminate the problem? Thank you.

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Hi Rose,

I am having problems with the genoise classique recipe. My cakes have a thick swiss cheese like rind on the bottom. I was able to use the top halves of the cakes, which were spongey, but not the bottom. Not sure where things went wrong. What would you recommend?

Thanks!

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Hi Rose,
My first time on the blog. Have been reading the bread books by the top master bakers, your included, and I love them all, but am thinking yours is my favorite! Love not only the wonderful information, but the creative ideas that fit my taste to a T.

My question is how will a large amount of vanilla extract affect a small batch of (a very rich, sweet) dough -- i.e., about a cup and a half of flour, without a lot of liquid, but with a lot of yeast. Because I use so much, I'm having to trade out some of the other liquid--milk/water and I wonder if so much alcohol is killing some of the yeast. The end product is good, but something rubs me the wrong way about all that alcohol. Is the non-alcohol flavoring or the powder a legitimate alternative?
Thank you so much!!

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Thanks, Rose. I do like the tip for using my fingers. Follow up question, though. Will dipping my fingers into the egg foam batter and feeling around for flour clumps cause the batter to lose some air? Have you ever dipped your finger into the rising foam on top of a glass of coca-cola? It breaks the bubbles up quickly and prevents the coke from spilling over the top of the glass; I imagine a similar effect on egg foam batter, but maybe not....Zach

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I am an intermediate baker, with a good bit of experience. I was following your recipe for Moist Chocolate Genoise and have this question:

I often have difficulty folding flour into the egg foam batter. Using cake flour sifted twice and a balloon whisk, I add the flour in increments to the batter, folding quickly but thoroughly until I see no traces of the flour before mixing additional flour. When the batter is completed, I see no flour lumps and all looks well. However, upon completion of baking, when I invert the completed cake, I see "pebbles" of flour at the bottom of the cake that apparently settled through the batter to the bottom. Though I've not yet noticed any of these pebbles disbursed in the cake and affecting its appearance, it still worries and bothers me as I wonder why some tiny clumps remain despite what seems to be thorough and accurate folding of the flour; given this, I'm never 100% confident that no one will find any small clumps when eating the cake.

Do you feel I'm still doing something wrong or are these tiny clumps inevitable?

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