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Fear of Génoise -- an Important Lesson
You're going to love this: I've made my first failed génoise ever! And I learned an important lesson in the process.
People have told me over the years that they were afraid of making génoise. I even taught an 80 year old friend of the family in Harrogate England how to make génoise and it worked perfectly. But I haven't made génoise for a while now and what I remembered best was all the fearful statements of others. It never pays to do anything with fear because either one is too tentative or too bold and cavalier. I fell into the latter category. After all, I've made hundreds of génoise and I developed my original recipe for Cook's magazine almost 25 years ago. After all, what did I have to fear but génoise i mean fear itself?! But though cavalier and génoise are both French words the two should never be combined when baking! I could tell something was wrong when I poured the batter into the pan and it only filled the pan half-full instead of the usual two -thirds. Also what was odd was that the top was filled with little bubbles. Predictable, the cake never rose more than 1 inch.
My heart fell. Had I lost the magic? What if I never again would be able to make a perfect génoise? And what went wrong? Does cornstarch have a shelf life after all? (Mine was several years old.) Did I fold in the flour and cornstarch too much and deflate the batter? I felt just like everyone else who's ever asked me to diagnose or sleuth out his or her baking problems on things that always worked before and suddenly went wrong.
I sprang into action whipping up a second génoise before I lost the courage. The horrible thought occurred to me that now I understood the story of the chef who killed himself when his recipe failed-I think it was a soufflé but maybe not. Could it have been a génoise?
It always takes so much less time when you’ve just made something to make it again- all the thoughts are still active on the hard drive of one's mind. I narrowed it down to the one thing I did differently (what I was referring to as cavalier). I made the mistake of thinking: “Why do I have to beat the eggs and sugar for five whole minutes on high when after three minutes they look thick enough and don't seem to be getting any thicker or fuller in the bowl?" So I stopped beating at three minutes, and that was what made the critical difference as to the texture and height of the finished génoise (see photograph for comparison).
So the lesson is clear: Don't be fearful; and follow the instructions in the Cake Bible, especially if you wrote it.
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Bernadette, I am so sorry for you feared experiences.
The Moist Chocolate Genoise recipe is perfect as it is. You don't need to change it one thing. No heating of the eggs and no cornstarch. But be sure you start with room temperature everything, and that your dissolved chocolate is at room temperature. If your dissolved chocolate remains warm it will increase deflation.
It is a denser genoise, so you reach a lesser volume than a typical genoise.
Makes wonderful chocolate madeleines, too!
Reply to this Posted by: Hector | July 7, 2008 6:25 PM #
Hector,
Regarding my posting of 6/21, thanks very much for your answers to my questions. Just a little
explanation to my ideas about using cornstarch, and possibly heating the egg mixture. At the end of the Moist Chocolte Genoise recipe, Rose has a page entitled "Pointers for Genoise Success". In there she mentions both cutting her flour amount with "50% cornstarch", and possibly heating the egg/sugar mixture over hot water. HOWEVER, since you can make the cake successfully, and I cannot, I will try it with straight flour and NO cornstarch.
Also, on page 381 of the cake bible Rose gives 4 different methods of
quicktemping the chocolate for the praline sheets, I used method number
two, and added vegetable oil to the chocolate. Perhaps you use an
alternative method of tempering, If so, I would be curious to know which
one, and if you recommend my trying that.
Thanks again for the continued response. I'm slowly regaining my courage to
try this cake again! :-')
Bernadette
Reply to this Posted by: Bernadette Andaloro | July 4, 2008 12:28 PM #
i'm quite sure you didn't beat the whites stiffly enough since i wrote stiff peaks. with all that sugar the whites should be very glossy, stiff, and smooth.
Reply to this Posted by: rose levy beranbaum | June 22, 2008 5:52 PM #
Hector,
The recipe did not call for cream of tartar, so I didn't include it. I usually try to follow TCB exactly. The whites were indeed older, they had been frozen.
Thanks,
Julie
Reply to this Posted by: Julie | June 22, 2008 5:13 PM #
Hector,
The recipe did not call for cream of tartar, so I didn't include it. I usually try to follow TCB exactly. The whites were indeed older, they had been frozen.
Thanks,
Julie
Reply to this Posted by: Anonymous | June 22, 2008 5:12 PM #
bill, make wonderful cake crumbs to top off a coffee cake or use as filling for a bear claw! or just toast it and eat like a cookie!
or run it thru foo processr and fold with whipped cream and make a cake trouffle.
I have had my fears of genoise!
Reply to this Posted by: hector | June 22, 2008 11:44 AM #
I always use cream of tartar so I wouln't know the white issue! also eggs whites should be a few weeks old in the shell or previously frozen as fresh of the hen eggs never whip.
please no ropes when whipping whites.
Reply to this Posted by: hector | June 22, 2008 11:38 AM #
Rose,
I've successfully made genoise classique and genoise au chocolat several times, but I've never yet been successful with white genoise (p. 127 TCB). This last time, the layers were one inch tall instead of the specified one-and-a-quarter inches.
I don't think it was the oven temperature, if anything the oven was a little on the hot side and they were done (cake shrunk from the sides) in the minimum time suggested.
Could the problem have occurred with beating the whites? I started adding the sugar at the soft peak stage, but instead of reaching full stiff peaks after all the sugar was incorprated, the whites became viscous. The base of the peaks looked firm, but the tips drew out into a rope. I continued beating for a little while longer, but the texture did not change so I proceeded with the recipe, adding the water and then folding in the other ingredients.
Should I have kept beating longer? Do whites reach stiff peaks with all that sugar in them? I was afraid of overdoing it, especially without cream of tartar.
Thanks for helping,
Julie
Reply to this Posted by: Julie | June 22, 2008 10:55 AM #
I had my first collapsed genoise this week. I've made many many genoise before this is the first time I've had a problem. I think I was too aggressive when I folded in the dry ingredients...tried to eliminate the little pockets of flour. But there was the batter in the pan...clearly deflated...filling it barely 1/2 way. And optimistically, I baked it and got a really labor intesive Pancake. Anyway, this was one of three cakes for my Mom's 70th B-day party...so I had no choice but to start over. And start over I did...at about 11;30 PM. Finally finished...filling, buttercream and all after 3 AM. The next night was a coconut cake and a chocolate layer cake. again...like 3 AM. I saved the collapsed genoise, wrapped it well and froze it. Any suggestions as to what I can do with it? Oh...and by the way...Mom's b-day was a success...lots of happy cake eating people...and a request for a Bar Mitzvah cake from a relative...but quite some time in the future.
Reply to this Posted by: Bill | June 22, 2008 10:40 AM #
I've had collapsed moist chocolate genoise, and always due to insufficient oven heat or opening the oven door too soon.
I always beat the eggs until the volume in the recipe is reached, it often takes longer minutes than indicated in the recipe.
Reply to this Posted by: Hector | June 22, 2008 5:42 AM #
Hi Rose-
I recently tried the "Triple Chocolate Cake" recipe in The Cake Bible. For days I looked for a chocolate cake recipe that seemed to be the "best" in terms of taste and elegance, but with dramatic presentation. It was for the birthday of a very special friend. When I read your note in the book about you having received several marriage proposals after serving the cake, I thought I had found the perfect answer to my problem. Luckily I made the cake for myself before making it for my friend, and I just ruined it!!
I just read your blog concerning your disappointing genoise. That was the most disappointing part of my cake too. I just wanted to ask, if I should have warmed the eggs first. The recipe didn't say I should. Also, how is this done when a standing mixer is used? I want to try the cake again, but I'm scared to death! Thanks very much.
Bernadette
Reply to this Posted by: Bernadette Andaloro | June 21, 2008 6:35 PM #
I don't know if this is of any help, Annie, but I live in N.Wales and I bought Rose's Cake Bible last year from Amazon. On rose's recommendation I bought the US publication and I find it fine save for the differences in our flours but I have used Kate's method of microwaving the flour and have had some success albeit not as good as if I was using US cake flour of course! I have spoken to two others in this country who have the UK edition and they would much prefer to have the US version, I think that IS available on Amazon at the moment. Good luck and let me know how you get on.
Where in Scotland are you? My husband is from Dundee.
Reply to this Posted by: Jeannette | May 17, 2008 4:18 AM #
annie, i doubt if we will have a special UK version because all the metrics will also be in the book and of course all the info. on kate flour for those cakes that require bleached flour.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | May 16, 2008 4:13 PM #
Thanks, Rozanne, I did find the discussion thread on all the flour issues that the Brits and Aussies are having, so apologize for not having seen it sooner. I'm definitely going to try the microwave method - kate flour.
I went on to amazon.co.uk and see the British version is not available BUT it's possible I might be able to source the paperback one at a price - I'll have to do some searching.
The good news is that I have not had ANY issues with any recipes I've made from the Pastry or Bread Bibles since moving here.
Rose, will you have a UK/Australian version of the new book?
Reply to this Posted by: Annie | April 24, 2008 4:49 PM #
Annie, re the UK edition of the Cake Bible, have you tried a used book store or Amazon? I know the publisher was Macmillan.
Reply to this Posted by: Rozanne | April 24, 2008 12:30 PM #
Annie, this topic has been discussed in detail on this blog (do a search for kate flour)and on Kate's website http://amerrierworld.wordpress.com/kate-flour/
Hope it will help you. Good luck.
Reply to this Posted by: Rozanne | April 24, 2008 12:04 PM #
I have moved back to Scotland after living in the US for many years. I am unable to get cake flour here and am also unable to get the British version of the Cake Bible as it's out of print and seems to be unobtainable. Rose, what flour should I use in place of cake flour and should I change the quantities? I have no problem with bread and pastry but cakes seem to be more hit and miss. I did order some cake flour from KAF and they sent it Airmail but the cost of postage was more that the cost of the flour! Any advice appreciated.
Annie
Reply to this Posted by: Annie | April 24, 2008 11:46 AM #
One last comment regarding almond genoise:
I made almond genoise by substituting toasted, finely ground almonds for the chestnut flour in TCB's chestnut genoise. The result was a cake that was denser and lower in height than classic genoise.
I found the flavor of almonds was overpowerd by my using amaretto syrup in the proportions specified in TCB. In my opinion, the substitution was not really worth the extra time, effort and loss of light texture. Perhaps this technique is best used in cakes with little or no syrup.
Lastly, my cake sunk slightly in the center upon cooling, so this substitution may require a longer baking time than the original recipie.
Hope that helps anyone attempting almond genoise!
Best,
Julie
Reply to this Posted by: Julie | April 24, 2008 7:03 AM #
Hi everyone; I just wanted to comment on an earlier topic about using almond flour/meal in genoise cakes.
Genoise is my favorite cake to make as I find it so forgiving. I often use between 50 and 100% ground nut flour (almond, hazelnut, walnut or pecan). I use the nut that goes best with the cake I'm making. For example walnut/orange, Hazelnut/chocolate, almond/lemon, etc.
What I really wanted to share, though, is that I NEVER add the ground nuts while beating the eggs. I treat them as flour:
* First, I combine the warmed egs with sugar in an electric mixer with a whisk.
* While the mixer is running, I sift the ground nuts together with whatever flour, cocoa, grated chocolate, spices or other dry ingredients I'm using.
* When the eggs have reached the 'soft peaks' stage, I fold in the dry ingredients (alternating with folding in any melted, cooled, chocolate/butter.)
I find this is an incredibly forgiving recipe...I have experimented a lot with using different ingredients and it always comes out delicious.
For the nuts it is important that they be finely ground. I either grate them myself with a fine rotary grater or buy them pre-ground from Trader Joe's.
Happy baking! -Jessica
Reply to this Posted by: Jessica E | April 1, 2008 3:34 PM #
Bill, we must be on the same wavelength! Just after I posted, I thought to myself, "Why not make the whole recipe of frosting and just freeze the leftovers for cupcakes?"
Now that I have the half-size round pans, I've put a 5-to-6-cup Bundt pan and an 8-cup angel tube pan onto my "wish list." (Those are half the "standard" sizes.) Terrible the way buying one good kitchen item just makes you want more... ;)
Reply to this Posted by: Barbara A. | February 22, 2008 9:43 PM #
Barbara:
I too will make half size cakes using 7" pans. Works really really well. I usually make a full batch of frosting, since 1/2 recipe will cover the cake, but it feels a little stingy. I freeze the left over frostings in ziplock freezer bags and use it for cupcakes (as rose suggests in the cake bible). When I have several bags of different frostings in the freezer, I bake up a batch of cupcakes and can have a variety of different frostings...and almost no work!
Reply to this Posted by: Bill | February 22, 2008 2:53 PM #
Teresa, Rose's suggestion is great, but you could also just bake smaller cakes. A 6-inch round pan holds just about half as much as a 9-inch round pan. If I have a recipe I want to try and I don't want to make a full-size cake, I just cut the recipe in half and use the smaller pans. You do have to guess a bit at the baking times. And you might end up needing a bit more than half the frosting because the height of the cake is still the same even though the surface area of the top is half as much.
I always bake full-size pies, though, because my husband loves pie so much!
Reply to this Posted by: Barbara A. | February 20, 2008 10:34 PM #
giving away samples is the best way to make new friends. few people will turn down a piece of cake--even what we might think of as an imperfect one!
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | February 19, 2008 9:20 PM #
I just bought the Cake Bible and I love it. I am a culinary student, about to graduate, and my main interest is baking. I really want to get into cakes more. Anyway, I can relate to this story because over the weekend I made your Cordon Rose Cream Cheesecake, I didn't allow it to refriderate overnight though, it was more like 3-4 hours. I was making it for my neighbor. When I plated it, it cracked in several places. So I learned the same lesson. Always follow the recipe!!! I love your book by the way and can't wait to buy more of them. P.S. Because of cost, I feel bad baking and just giving it away, but it just me and my man. What did you do with your product when you were learning? I'd like to bake more often, but don't want to waiste it.
Reply to this Posted by: Theresa | February 19, 2008 5:19 PM #
if you bring the eggs to the temperature i indicated in the recipe and then beat them in the mixer for the time i indicated you get the results i did. but if using a hand mixer you need to keep the water hot while beating because it takes longer.
you can bet that génoise will be one of the things on the dvd to accompany the upcoming book!
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | February 3, 2008 10:20 AM #
Rudy, I've been reading your question on Genoise. I beat the eggs over a hot water bath, all the time, until the eggs has tripled in volume. Sometimes it is more than the time on the recipe! At this point the consistency is almost like meringue.
I use my KA water bath attachment, the water IS touching the mixer's bowl, the water temperature is not boiling or simmering, it is just hot, hot enough to dip you finger in for only a few seconds before hurting. To keep this temperature, I gradually add boiling water as the water bath cools down.
I am not an expert on genoise, will be interested on what Rose has to say on this take.
Reply to this Posted by: Hector | February 3, 2008 12:57 AM #
Rudy- Congratulations on your Genoise-success! Rose's recipes are sure to give great results unless you are using different type of ingredient(s). if the flour you use is not bleached make sure you give them the "Kate-flour" treatment. use cake strips while baking and cake pans with "straight"(not sloped) sides. you can even consider increasing beating-time by 2(=1+1)minutes. you are going to get the same height as in Rose's photo.
Reply to this Posted by: nushera | February 2, 2008 9:15 PM #
Hi Nushera,
I just tried making the cake with your suggestions, and... SUCCESS!! What I didn't do before was place the mixing bowl over a pot of simmering water. I had thought it was too dangerous so I just placed it over a bowl of very hot water. This time, the cake emerged over 1 inch high with a leveled top. Thank you for saving me! Next time I'm going to use a large balloon whisk for folding in (I only have a small one now) and see if I can get the same height as in Rose's photo. :)
Rudy
Reply to this Posted by: Rudy | February 2, 2008 8:03 AM #
Rudy- humid weather shouldn't matter much as egg whites aren't being whipped separately in this recipe. i use a hand mixer too. i beat for a total of 10 mins(place the pyrex bowl on a pan of simmering water on the stovetop- the pan's rim fits the bowl and the bowl's bottom doesnt touch the water- for the first 5 mins of beating, then the rest of beating goes on after removing the bowl from heat).
are you adding the flour through a strainer and folding with a large balloon whisk?
have you watched this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TASHGBCdmgw
Reply to this Posted by: nushera | February 2, 2008 12:21 AM #
Hi Matthew,
Thanks for coming to my rescue! You brought up an interesting point - my cake was baked (ie, the edges started shrinking away from the pan) after just 15 mins, not the 25-35 mins stated in the book. Could this hint to something?
My oven is brand new, so it shouldn't be the temperature. And I don't open the oven door till the cake is done, so it's not that either.
What consistency is your egg mixture after you've beaten it for 10 minutes? I live in Singapore where it's very humid. So it may affect beating duration. Going by egg mixture consistency is more accurate for me to go by.
Please write back soon - I'm dying to try it again for the 4th time!
Rudy
Reply to this Posted by: Rudy | February 1, 2008 9:31 PM #
Rudy,
I make this with a hand mixer too. The last time I made this is when I made the mango-rose cake last summer--so I don't remember every detail about the texture. I do know that I beat the eggs for 10 minutes until I reached the specified volume. You also have to make sure everything is warm to get the full volume. It doesn't sound like you're deflating it while folding because you initially have good volume--the structure collapses later. I wonder if if the structure is not setting in the oven for some reason--not hot enough or the door has been opened? Does it bake in the normal amount of time?
Reply to this Posted by: Matthew | February 1, 2008 9:44 AM #
Hi Rose and everyone,
I've baked the Genoise Classique three times and I'm close to pulling my hair out! Each time, the height is under one inch, never the glorious one and a half as promised in the Cake BIble. I have the following question:
Exactly how long should I beat the eggs and sugar? I tried 8, 11 and 14 minutes (I use an electric hand beater) and they all result in a flat cake. When placed in the oven, it rose quite nicely but after about 10 minutes, the entire surface starts to fall.
The instructions to "triple the volume" is a little vague, so could someone tell me what consistency should I be looking at? The egg mixture should have a stiff and upright peak when I lift up the beater, or should the peak droop? Or should there not be a peak at all, only a ribbon trail that floats on the surface for a few seconds?
Thanks everyone. Any comment is appreciated. Save this girl from her misery!
Rudy
Reply to this Posted by: Rudy | February 1, 2008 3:31 AM #
Hi Rose and everyone,
I've baked the Genoise Classique three times and I'm close to pulling my hair out! Each time, the height is under one inch, never the glorious one and a half as promised in the Cake BIble. I have the following question:
Exactly how long should I beat the eggs and sugar? I tried 8, 11 and 14 minutes (I use an electric hand beater) and they all result in a flat cake. When placed in the oven, it rose quite nicely but after about 10 minutes, the entire surface starts to fall.
The instructions to "triple the volume" is a little vague, so could someone tell me what consistency should I be looking at? The egg mixture should have a stiff and upright peak when I lift up the beater, or should the peak droop? Or should there not be a peak at all, only a ribbon trail that floats on the surface for a few seconds?
Thanks everyone. Any comment is appreciated. Save this girl from her misery!
Rudy
Reply to this Posted by: Rudy | February 1, 2008 3:28 AM #
Hi Rose and everyone,
I've baked the Genoise Classique three times and I'm close to pulling my hair out! Each time, the height is under one inch, never the glorious one and a half as promised in the Cake BIble. I have the following question:
Exactly how long should I beat the eggs and sugar? I tried 8, 11 and 14 minutes (I use an electric hand beater) and they all result in a flat cake. When placed in the oven, it rose quite nicely but after about 10 minutes, the entire surface starts to fall.
The instructions to "triple the volume" is a little vague, so could someone tell me what consistency should I be looking at? The egg mixture should have a stiff and upright peak when I lift up the beater, or should the peak droop? Or should there not be a peak at all, only a ribbon trail that floats on the surface for a few seconds?
Thanks everyone. Any comment is appreciated. Save this girl from her misery!
Rudy
Reply to this Posted by: Rudy | February 1, 2008 3:26 AM #
If you are using all-purpose flour, I would imagine that could make it tough as well. Rose uses a mix of cake flour and corn starch, so there is very little gluten.
Reply to this Posted by: Matthew | December 16, 2007 10:21 PM #