Real Baking with Rose Levy Beranbaum

physics prevents pasta to absorb salt after cooked! salt the water depending on how much the pasta has already, most has zero.

if you need to cut down on salt, try Alessi's new method which is actually an ancient method. works well for most sauces, try it. I love it, and it is very energy efficient! I've just made the ultimate penne with sauted pistachio sauce.

Reply to this      Posted by: hector | August 28, 2008 9:58 AM #

Yes, it's all about the flavor. I've heard a few chefs claim that you can never add enough salt to pasta after it is cooked. Best to salt the water properly before hand, and remember, most of the salt will go down the drain in the end.

Reply to this      Posted by: Patrincia | August 28, 2008 6:25 AM #

I also think of you, Patricia when I'm adding salt to my pasta water, but why should there be such a lot? Is it for flavour or is there another reason.? As a general rule I am using less salt in cooking than I used to for health reasons and I never use it at the table but I do admit pasta tastes better for the saltiness!

Reply to this      Posted by: Jeannette | August 28, 2008 2:40 AM #

THAT is a gold rule, and I always think Patrincia when I am doing it!

I am moving this weekend, so making spaguetti with lemon sauce to feed the batalion of movers staff: my friends... they move... I cook! Also making panettone bread pudding (yes, cleaning up my freezer).

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | August 27, 2008 5:08 PM #

And don't forget to add enough salt to you cooking water - it should taste like the sea.

Reply to this      Posted by: Patrincia | August 27, 2008 4:18 PM #

Hi Ariel, Garofalo is a new brand arriving to the USA. De Cecco has been around much longer in the USA. Both are very comparable, I think some De Cecco shapes are better than Garofalo, and viceversa. There are more shapes of De Cecco in the USA, than Garofalo. Garofalo is distributed thru Costco, and other large wholesalers, so it is cost efficient.

Again, they are comparable. HOWEVER, a few of my friends from Italy (who still live in Italy) prefer Garofalo because of taste and texture. It does take a few minutes longer to cook, but they know from their granparents the saying "good pasta takes longer to cook." They are also a bit bias with De Cecco, because it is a brand that is mass produced and has invaded the international world. Garofalo remains somewhat more regional, and Italians love this. One bad example of De Cecco, is that they make some pasta shapes for the USA market, that do not exist in Italy, some which do not taste well and do not adhere to any suitable pasta sauce preparation (shape is important, shape is specific for certain pasta sauce). Garofalo is starting to do this, too.

Whichever pasta you choose, I find SUBSTANTIAL better taste with pasta made with grain grown in Italy. Garofalo is. De Cecco, too (I haven't noticed any De Cecco boxes that are manufactured in the USA, but I may be wrong since I haven't hunted it at every store in the USA!).

So you know, a box of Barilla USA, is made in the USA. The same box in ITALY, tastes much better.

Ok, sorry, I write so much, but I am training so much on pasta, first hand with my Italian family, that the above is just a small tip on making good pasta dishes.

Oh, one more thing, the above is just for the dry pasta varieties (also known as durum semolina dry pasta), does not contain eggs. Fresh pasta is another chapter, and contains eggs. Spaguetti #9 and Penne Rigate are my favorite dry pasta. Fettucine and Pappardelle are my favorite fresh pasta, and these I make myself! as well as Lasagne.

Before I let you go, I need to stress the importance on properly cooking your pasta (boiling, draining, immediate mix with sauce), and choosing a proper type of sauce specific for type and shape of pasta.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | August 27, 2008 1:37 PM #

hi, Hector, the reason for the ep-mail is to ask you why in your personal opinion Garofalo is better in De Cecco, i'm trying to by better pasta for my stablisment and i want your personal opinion.
Thank you very much
Ariel

Reply to this      Posted by: Garofalo VS De Cecco | August 27, 2008 12:19 PM #

My July 4th was a pizza party, and we ended up with 3 blank pizza crusts. I froze them.

Today, I threw them on the little $20 toaster oven at work with just a few slices of Asiago Pressato cheese.

I found heaven from The Bread Bible, again.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | July 23, 2008 6:39 PM #

I love the picture, too, and literally makes me home sick!!!

FYI, Barilla found in the USA is NOT the same as in ITALY. Barilla USA is for the most part made in the USA (read the packaging). The same spaghetti or penne tastes better/different when made in ITALY. Once I brought a suitcase full of Barilla ITALY, they thought I was crazy or lived in some deserted hungry island, but for 1 Euro for 3 pack, why not? Made wonderful Christmas gifts.

De Cecco and Garofalo are imported from Italy. Garofalo is for many THE BEST in ITALY.

I haven't found any advantage of using a wood fired clay pizza oven for Bread Bible's pizza. Indeed my German friends built one and they make wonders with it, but the pizza from THE YELLOW KITCHEN is still the winner. Bread Bible's overnight refrigerated rise and 2 step baking adds so much flavor to the crust, plus makes it more manageable to host a party. In fact, some of my friends in ITALY are using Bread Bible! You do need a lot of storage space to keep 30 or so pizza crusts =)

Cousin's wedding will be with a quarter size Cadco convection oven lined with La Cuisine's carbon steel baking sheets or either Home Depot quarry tiles cut to fit.

Happy Pizza.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | June 10, 2008 1:31 PM #

Great pantry photo Hector... I love to see that we can get the same pasta brands that people eat in Italy. Btw, I love Muir Glen tomatoes!!!

Reply to this      Posted by: Patrincia | June 10, 2008 10:41 AM #

Just enough time to build that wood fired clay pizza oven you have been dreaming about.

Reply to this      Posted by: Gene Russell | June 9, 2008 9:55 PM #

superpeel copy? share your engineering drawings!!!

hmm, not sure what to say about the bitter rancidity.

busy now, just got the floor plan of the house my cousin Elaine is getting marry at, it is on September, but I am doing all the catering. Pizza included!

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | June 9, 2008 8:50 PM #

Thanks Hector,
Nice pictures as usual. I am just wondering about the freshness of the Caputo I bought. The final crust was fine but the raw flour has a tiny bitter aftertaste. I was hoping someone could tell if that was normal or not.
By the way I am really in love with my superpeel copy. The more I use it the more I appreciate it. I can pick up a fully loaded pizza with raw dough and set it in the oven. No muss no fuss no hassle. Truly a revolution!

Reply to this      Posted by: Gene Russell | June 9, 2008 7:11 PM #

Hello Gene, never did, but do use 00 generic brand, but only in Italy.

The flours from Italy are so great, so different than in the USA, they make great ciabatta and other breads made with wet doughs, so full of holes. For some reason they never turn out spongy!

In the USA, I don't justify the cost and capriccio. Rose's Perfect Pizza Dough made with Gold Medal Unbleached Bread Flour (Better for Bread, or Harvest King), is PERFECT.

You may enjoy these pictures in Italy. Pantry and rising dough which you can click for closeup.

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/ItaliaMajare2007/CasaPantry.html

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | June 9, 2008 2:10 PM #

Hey Hector,
Have you used the Caputo flour?

Reply to this      Posted by: Gene Russell | June 9, 2008 8:20 AM #

Gene, thanks for the updates. I love Muir Glen organic tomato sauce, too, and so economical.

I've been using a half-half blend of boxed Italian San Marzano puree with The Bread Bible oven dried grape tomatoes. But now, I am using 100% oven dried grape tomatoes, after letting them sit for about 1 week in the refrigerator so to release more sauce.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | June 9, 2008 1:13 AM #

Pizza Update...
We had friends over for pizza last night and I tried some recipe variations I have been thinking about for a while.
Sauce:
I have been using crushed San Marzano tomatoes. I like the tartness and the slightly bitter finish. I kind of missed the robust sweetness of the California tomatoes in the Muir Glen though. Also the San Marzano have a little too much water for pizza topping. The solution then was to sweat the San Marzanos in a sauce pan on low for 2 hours stirring occasionally. Then combine with the Muir Glen.
I also augmented the usual spices with a small clove of shallot and a tiny amount of rosemary. The shallot highlights the garlic and adds a nice undercurrent of onion without overpowering. The bits of rosemary were delightful surprises.
Dough:
I found a local supply of Caputo 00. I couldn't completely abandon my potato and buttermilk however. So I reduced the amount of each by half since the Caputo has less gluten than the unbleached all purpose. I made two batches of dough. I like the Caputo it has a wheatier flavor than my American flour. I am slightly suspicious of my source however. The Caputo had a slightly bitter finish that I normally associate with rancidity. It wasn't unpleasant but I don't have enough experience with this flour to know what is normal. The Caputo dough didn't absorb the oil as readily as the normal batch. Probably due to the decreased amount of buttermilk.
In the end both doughs were nearly identical in texture and cooked identically. My guests didn't notice a difference in flavor but I thought I could detect a slightly more robust flavor from the Caputo batch. It was a subtle difference though.
In summary this sauce will become my standard. Half San Marzano half Muir Glen shallot and rosemary. The Caputo? Improvement was marginal at best I probably won't try it again.

Reply to this      Posted by: Gene Russell | June 8, 2008 8:39 PM #

Gene, you just gave me an idea to try. Next time I should knead the divided dough a lot by hand or in the mixer and then let it rest. May be that will help stretch better into the pizza.
Thanks

Reply to this      Posted by: salma | April 20, 2008 8:50 PM #

Must be something about the way the machines that form the balls of dough at the factory work. They probably have some sort of taffy pull like mechanism that creates long strands of gluten around and around inside the dough.
Hi Cheryl,
I am working on refining the recipe so I am curious how it works for people.

Reply to this      Posted by: Gene Russell | April 20, 2008 6:56 PM #

Gene I haven't tried your recipe yet. I just need time to try many different things. I hope to get to your recipe soon.

Reply to this      Posted by: Cheryl | April 20, 2008 6:41 PM #

Very uneven stretch, like its not the same dough.
I could live on bread alone!

Reply to this      Posted by: salma | April 20, 2008 3:24 PM #

I am glad you enjoyed the dough.
Intuitively I would have expected the divided dough to work just like the larger piece. In what sense did it not stretch the same? Too stretchy? Not stretchy? Uneven stretch.
Yeah that diet thing. This damned sourdough has me eating so much bread I have gained 10 lbs in four months.

Reply to this      Posted by: Gene Russell | April 20, 2008 2:43 PM #

Hi Gene
The crust did not taste quite like the pizza parlor crust but it was delicious and crusty. Actually I like to stretch the dough rather than roll it because I find it bakes better that way. This dough was very easy to stretch. This recipe is definitely a keeper. I will make it again.
A friend, who first got me started on pizza making, found dough purchased from Whole Foods worked best. I liked it but if I stretched it as big as my stone would accommodate, it is not thin enough. When I cut it into half (or even tried cutting it into 6 to have make-your-own for a party) and let it rest, it somehow did not stretch the same. Any thoughts on that problem?
I do enjoy different tastes and textures of the pie, including California Pizza Kitchen's sweeter, softer crust. Can anyone come up with that recipe?
I have to take a break from breads for a week, so its a good time to go on a diet.
Thanks again,

Reply to this      Posted by: salma | April 20, 2008 2:07 PM #

Hey Cheryl and Salma,
How did those pizzas turn out?

Reply to this      Posted by: Gene Russell | April 19, 2008 10:04 PM #

Go Brian Go!
Nothing better than breakfast pizza. MMMM

Reply to this      Posted by: gene Russell | March 11, 2008 12:17 PM #

Gene,

Thank you for keeping track of your measurements - that's very helpful to know. I was also making the dough again this past weekend. I did it before you posted the detailed instructions, but I was able to incorporate some of the feedback you provided earlier last week. I used the Kitchenaid and really liked the way it came out. I also baked the pizzas with convection and it helped the crust to get a nice golden brown.

The other thing we noticed last week was that the leftover pizza was very good. Although the texture is not quite as good, the flavor continues to get better over the next couple of days.

Thanks again for the additional info.

Brian

Reply to this      Posted by: Brian | March 11, 2008 11:33 AM #

I have been reading all these wonderful blogs re pizza. I am definitely going to try Gene's recipe.
Rose, you 1/4 the recipe and gave the exact ingredients. Did you use 1/4 c buttermilk and 1/4 oil?

Reply to this      Posted by: salma | March 9, 2008 11:02 PM #

I have been reading all these wonderful blogs re pizza. I am definitely going to try Gene's recipe.
Rose, you 1/4 the recipe and gave the exact ingredients. Did you use 1/4 c buttermilk and 1/4 oil?

Reply to this      Posted by: salma | March 9, 2008 11:00 PM #

Thanks for the update Gene. I will give it a shot. I'll be using my KA mixer.

Reply to this      Posted by: Cheryl | March 9, 2008 8:45 PM #

Hi,
Pizza update.

I made two batches of dough by hand.
Large mixing bowl wire whisk spatula.
Potato Puree
10.3 oz diced yukon gold potato
2 cups water
boil medium heat 30 minutes
let cool
Blend potato and cooking water together

combine
1 cup puree
1 cup water
1 cup buttermilk
1 1/2 tsp active dry yeast
2 tsp fine sea salt
Add two cups or 8oz all purpose unbleached flour. Beat that up into a paste with the whisk.
Drizzle 1/2 cup grape or canola oil while beating with the whisk until incorporated.
Add 3 1/2 cups or 11oz more flour. Use the spatula to clean up the whisk and work in the flour. Knead into a smooth dough.
Let rise at 65 overnight. Punch down knead lightly as needed. Try not to let it rise past double at each rising but it is not a disaster if it does.
So that is what I am calling Gene's classic dough. It was well received.

I made a second batch as an homage to Hector. I substituted 1 cup of classic runny sourdough starter for the buttermilk and I omitted the yeast. Oh and just to throw in another variable I used 1/8 cup olive oil 3/8 cup grapeseed oil blend. This produced a delightful crust. It was crunchier and the crusty bubbly bits were flakier. I liked the flavor best with the experimental Thai pizza we made. I found the extra sourness of the dough distracting with classic ingredients. A tasty treat in any case I think I will be making it again.

Reply to this      Posted by: Gene Russell | March 9, 2008 2:13 PM #

Hi Cheryl,
I will endeavor to come up with a more reproduceable recipe. I can't say when that will happen. I urge you to have a go with what is posted here in the meantime. It won't be inedible no matter what you do. I promise. So make some small batches and have fun seeing how the pizzas turn out.

Reply to this      Posted by: gene Russell | March 5, 2008 10:03 PM #

I am not very experienced when it comes to making bread. I wonder if the instructions for Gene's pizza dough could be written with precise measurements and detail? I would love to try making the dough.

Reply to this      Posted by: Cheryl | March 4, 2008 9:48 PM #

Hi Brian,
There is no wrong with tasty pizza. There are a couple of pretty good youtube videos on shaping pizza. One by a New York guy who is a wizard. He is using some very elastic dough however and my dough never comes out as elastic as his.
Oven temps are tough because ovens vary so much. My oven has a convection fan and an element for the stone. I bake at 470. Preheat your stone as hot as you can get it then bake @450?

Reply to this      Posted by: gene Russell | March 3, 2008 5:46 PM #

Gene,

Thank you - that is very helpful. I might try using the Kitchenaid - that may make it easier for me to try to get the right consistencies.

I made 3 - 12" pizzas with about half the dough, so I probably would have had enough for 6 or 7. I don't think I got the dough quite right because my dough was fairly elastic - I had trouble shaping it. I'll definitely be trying again and I have about half the sauce left.

Final question (for now). I assume you have your oven at 500 or as high as it can go?

Thanks again,

Brian

P.S. Rose - thank you - I did also have your post and was trying to use it as a guide altough I was making a whole batch just to try it for the first time.

Reply to this      Posted by: Brian | March 3, 2008 4:34 PM #

Forgive me Rose this recipe thing is harder than it looks.

Hey Brian,
1.Sounds like you got the potato puree about right. The consistency of the paste should be thick enough to emulsify the oil but thin enough that you can still whip it. Clear as mud? In fact I guess mud is about the right consistency. When the oil emulsifies into the mixture it will turn a lighter shade of white.
2.Do knead. Oiled container to rise is a convenience.
3.I punch, turn, and knead a little bit. I think it helps redistribute the yeast and makes the final dough lighter.
4.To shape I pinch off a piece of dough by hand. Then I fold under and fold under to make a smooth ball. I set the folded side down on a floured board and press it out by hand and rolling pin. The advantage of this dough is that it is inelastic compared to most doughs. Most times a brief rest (30 secs) or a toss in the air to impress the guests is all that is necessary to shape it out to whatever thickness you like.
No need for further rising after shaping.
I usually make my pizzas about 12" in diameter because I can fit two in my oven that way. I can make more variety for my guests and they are easiy to handle.
I have never counted how many pizzas I get from a batch. I would guess 6?8? How many did your batch make?

The problem with my recipe is that I make my batches start to finish in a 5qrt Kitchenaid. I start with the whisk attachment to mix the liquids and emulsify the oil. Then I add enough flour until the whisk clogs up. I put in the dough hook and add flour slowly until the dough clings to the hook. Hows that for precise?
I am going to be making pizza next week. I will endeavor to measure this time and I will make a batch without the mixer to see how that works.

Reply to this      Posted by: gene Russell | March 3, 2008 1:54 AM #

Gene,

Thank you for sharing your recipes. I finally got around to trying your potato dough and your sauce recipe. The sauce was very tasty as was the dough. I had a few questions as I'm not an experienced baker. Based on your posts, it seems that you've made dough a few times, so please forgive me if some of the questions are pretty basic.

1. I wasn't sure how much flour to add to make a paste after adding the yeast/buttermilk to the potato. The potato puree was like very runny mashed potatoes and this became more liquidy with the water/yeast/buttermilk. As I added flour, I wasn't sure where to stop as it started becoming almost dough-like vs. a paste.

2. When you add the flour after the oil, do you take the dough out of the bowl and knead it? Do you place it in an oiled container to rise?

3. After each rise, do you just punch it down or do you turn it?

4. How do you go about shaping it? Do you just turn it out and divide it? Do you let it rest as you're shaping? Do you let it rise at all after shaping before putting on the topping?

5. How many pizzas of what size do you generally get out of a 1 potato dough batc