Real Baking with Rose Levy Beranbaum

From Luca:

so.... the basic sourdough bread is superior to my basic heart bread converted into sourdough.

It's softer, and milder. It's airy and fluffy, with a nice crispy crust.
It's also way more complicated! I ended up using a home-made banneton (colander, lined with tea towel).

So I am probably going to try and make that for a while, but:
1- I am going to double the recipe to make a larger bread
2- I am going to make it on a loaf pan, and not free form it

I am very surprised by the fact that it's a lot milder than my bread.
This obviously comes from the fact that it uses 25 grams of started. My recipe used 240 grams!!!

The timing is very complicated. It's like this:
1- 25 grams expanded to 75grams, wait 6 hours
2- discard, keep 50, expand to 50, wait 6 hours
3- mix dough, wait 20 minutes, add starter, wait 1 hour, deflate/fold, wait 1 hour, deflate/fold, wait 5 hours
4- shape, wait 4 hours
5- bake
So.. it's a 23 hours, but without a 12 hours period in the middle where you can sleep!

The only possibility is that you can refrigerate after phase 2, up to 20 hours So here is the possible schedule:
Day1: wake up, do step 1, go to work
Day1: come home for lunch, do step 2, go to work
Day1: come back from work, put starter in the fridge at 6pm Day2:go home for early lunch! at 11. Do phase 3. Will take until 1.30pm
Day2: come home do phase 4.. wait until 10pm
Day2: bake.. and go to bed.

!!!

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | October 16, 2008 5:40 PM #

Just a thought to all our bread bakers out there. The rising costs of energy and the awakening to be more environmental friendly, don't you think that preheating your oven for the needed 1 hours, plus about 1 more hour for bread baking, is a waste of energy? See, bread was invented to be baked in wood burning ovens or chimneys or heating appliances which remained turned on 24 hours a day, and also used for other needs like heating water, drying clothes, etc.

So I propose, for us looking for basic bread, to slice, freeze and toast, for our daily bread supply, how about we steam? Coming from the concept of Chinese steamed buns. It takes minutes to "heat" the steamer, and minutes to steam cook the buns. Then, I could air dry the buns for a day or so, then slice and store/freeze. I think a toast made out of a slice of steamed bun will taste great!

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | October 9, 2008 4:19 PM #

Sherry, thank you so much for reporting back. Yes, no ice is needed when using a dutch oven with cover. Temperature s/b the same or perhaps 25 degrees lower if it is a dark non-enamel dutch oven that normally gives you darker bottom crusts, but I find that using parchment prevents this.

I am so happy for you!

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | May 4, 2008 1:26 PM #

Hello Hector,

Just wanted to report that the basic hearth bread made with sourdough turned out awesome! I had it all mixed by 8:00 last night and got up at 6:00 this morning to check it. It was just starting to climb out of my 2 qt. measuring cup...so didn't take quite 12 hrs. to rise. I baked it in my dutch oven...covered for 10 minutes, uncovered for 25. I wasn't sure if the oven temp. should be the same as the original recipe or if I should still use ice cubes since the pot was covered. I let it rise on parchment and left it under the bread in the pot. It was more sour than the basic sourdough...which we like. Thanks for all your help!

Reply to this      Posted by: sherry | May 3, 2008 1:47 PM #

sherry, great find.

no, your starter isn't ruined, just don't get in the habit. it normally takes more than one mistake to ruin Rose's starter.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | May 1, 2008 8:11 PM #

Louise, I do that all the time! No worries.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | May 1, 2008 8:10 PM #

Oh my...I'm sorry...I feel bad about wanting to copy the recipe. After getting your reply I got on Amazon and ordered a book...yes, for less than $20.00.

Hopefully, my starter isn't ruined. I actually used 100 gr starter, 100 of flour, and 50 of water. I had just 23 grams left over, so guess I can do something with that if the big one doesn't work.

Reply to this      Posted by: sherrry | May 1, 2008 8:09 PM #

Due to Passover – it has been 2 weeks since I fed my starters. They looked ok – nothing green or other funny color. It did smell “yeasty” – a bit like bad wine. Also, even though it was stiff starter it seemed a little liquidy. Do you think it is ok? Thanks, Louise

Reply to this      Posted by: Louise Allen | May 1, 2008 7:40 PM #

Hi Sherry, first and most lets remember how is it possible that we are in this blog. Due to Rose, that has spent her life writing the books. It isn't legal to copy the book in any form, even less legal to share it. I would buy a used book and give it to my friend! You will be amazing how inexpensive and fast that is. Even new, I've found TBB as low as $20.

Regarding refrigerated starter. Refrigerator "does nothing" to the starter. It just retards it, slows the activity. If you don't have enough starter then you can quickly expand it by feeding it every time it doubles, kept at room temperature.

Now, I NEVER feed my starter more flour than what it says on TBB. If you have 50 grams of starter, you add 50 grams of flour and 25 of water: that is a total of 125 grams of starter. Leave it at room temp until it doubles, about 8 hours. Now add 125 grams of flour and 63 grams of water: That is a total of 313 grams. Leave it room temp until it doubles, it will take less than 8 hours. Now you have enough for the 241 grams to make bread and 70 plus-so to keep.

The reason I don't want to just dump A-WHOLE-LOT of flour/water into the starter is because you risk contamination. The starter would be so little to take over the new flour, that outside bacteria may take in first, and you don't want that.

There is no last word said on sourdough baking.

Oh, I don't add whole wheat to the Basic Heart Bread. The recipe calls for whole wheat just to add more flavor. The starter will give you plenty of it!

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | May 1, 2008 7:26 PM #

Thank you so much for taking time to answer my many questions...it really does sound like you're alREADY the Sourdough Boy! :-) I just have a couple more questions and I promise to bake the bread before posting again.

I considered myself lucky that today was day 5 for my starter...the perfect time to use it...BUT, when I took it out I remembered that I never have 241 grams, so I fed it double what I usually do and it has been on the counter for 2 hrs. You mentioned that freshly fed could be used, but it would take longer to rise. I'm thinking about mixing it tonight and letting it rise overnight. Will that work or would it be better to put it in the fridge for a few days? Also, out of the 322 grams of fresh flour how much should be whole wheat?

I am very interested in trying the DO for baking so will do a search on this website to see how. I'm sure you probably have it posted, huh?!

Now to change the subject. What do you do for friends who ask for a recipe from Rose's BB? They're so long to type out. Are they posted somewhere...is it legal to take them to Kinko's and copy them? My friend isn't interested in the whole book since he only likes to bake sourdough....mainly, pancakes, waffles, and biscuits, but he loves the bread I make from TBB and I'd like to share it with him.

Thanks again for being so helpful!

Reply to this      Posted by: sherrry | May 1, 2008 6:41 PM #

Thanks Sherry. Bread doesn't wait, so I have to answer asap as I can.

There is no better compliment and admiration to know that your math equals to mine's. YES, you got it right.

Regarding when to use the starter. Overall to make bread, it is best to use the starter when is at its most active state (it has just reached double). For a refrigerated starter is normally on day 5. But honestly, IT NO MATTERS. If your starter is at a less active state or freshly fed, the first rise will just take longer, but will take!

For a less sour bread, refresh your starter once or twice without refrigeration, keeping at room temp until it doubles. It is like the beginning of the Basic Sourdough Recipe.

I don't have Bread Bible with me right now, so not sure when is Step 4. But quickly you got it right: mix all the ingredients you just mathed out (note 322.8 is the amount of fresh flour, not total flour which means fresh flour plus flour contained in the starter).

Sometimes I blanket, sometimes I don't. When you blanket you get more even bread holes as the flour has more even hydration, perfect for loaf bread. But I like holes, so often I don't blanket. When no time, no blanket.

After you mix all these, for about 5-7 minutes, let it rise until doubled, it will take around 12 hours. I do add the honey, too, I find makes things speedier and higher rise. Don't forget the 10 grams of salt, too. Helps to break the starter in small pieces first, but really if you don't, after the 5-7 minutes of mixing.

The Costco Red Star Active Dry Yeast is the one I use for Rose's BB recipes. But I haven't touched it for years, since I am trying to be the next Sourdough Boy!

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | May 1, 2008 2:39 PM #

Good morning, Hector. I now have 2 frothy cups of liquid starter. I put one half in the fridge like you suggested and fed the other half. In four hours the one on the counter had doubled and the chilled one hadn't risen at all...maybe it wasn't supposed to since it was cold? Anyway, I combined the two, fed it again and let it set overnight. It looks and smells great! I wasn't as happy with the quick version as with the basic recipe, but I might try it again and refrigerate it overnight before baking it to see if the sourness is more pronounced.

I am anxious to try the hearth bread now and want to make sure I understand your instructions before I start. I use stiff starter INSTEAD of the yeast? And, it would be starter that I've refreshed the day before, right?...and, if I did the math right I would use 322.8 g total flour, 241.57 water, and 241.8 g stiff starter? I mix everything at once...meaning no flour blanket over sponge? In step 4 instead of a 1 hr. rise it will take 12? If time is a problem can I refrigerate either before or after the rise? Oh, and how do I figure how much whole wheat flour since I included that in the total weight?

One other question...I use Red Star Active Dry Yeast from Costco. Is the instant yeast called for in Rose's recipes different?

THANKS!!! Don't feel like you have to answer in a big hurry. I can see that you help a lot of people on this blog.

Reply to this      Posted by: sherrry | May 1, 2008 11:14 AM #

I hear you..... regarding making it in less time. If that is the case, Luca is making fantastic Basic Heart Bread with the stiff sourdough conversion. He uses Gold Medal bread flour.

You mix all the ingredients at once, let it rise to double. This first rise takes about 12 hours, is very slow. Then, gently and without deflating as much as possible, do 3 business letter turns at once. Transfer to loaf pan and rise until doubled. This final rise takes only 1 hour or so: meanwhile preheat oven, stone, and cast iron pan.

Bake on stone, use ice cubes on preheated cast iron pan.

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/BasicHeartBreadSourdoughLoaf.html

You can also do final rise on parchment as a boule, and bake free form (with parchment still, on the baking stone).

THAT is Luca's work. Meanwhile, I am developing my recipe for no-knead sourdough bread, and my preferred method of baking bread is using a dutch oven (just a matter of convenience)

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | April 30, 2008 4:33 PM #

Thanks Hector!

I'm going to try your suggestion right now...will let you know the results. I normally use the stiff starter and recipe for Basic Sourdough, but was just curious to see if I like this bread as well...it takes a lot less time. :-)

Reply to this      Posted by: sherrry | April 30, 2008 4:02 PM #

Sherry, what an interesting question and very useful tip. You can do either way. Your starter is active and alive now since it has doubled.

If you feed it again now, you would further increase the concentration of ambient yeast, but I don't think it is necessary.

There is one assertive way to decide: split your starter in half now, feed half and store the other half. See what happens to each, if not much difference then you can just combined after done with your experiment, or bake.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | April 30, 2008 3:53 PM #

Hi,

Today I am trying the Low Risk Sourdough Bread and had to use all of my liquid starter. However, I was able to scrape the sides of the jar and get just a small amount to which I added 1/2 c. bread flour and 1/4 c. water. It has now doubled and is bubbly. My question is...should I feed it again now or refrigerate it and start my regular weekly feeding schedule until I have it built back up? Thanks for anyone's help.

Reply to this      Posted by: sherrry | April 30, 2008 3:22 PM #

Pippo, I hear your frustration as many of us have too! Thanks for sharing.

I give you my word, that The Bread Bible recipe to make your sourdough starter works. The discussions on the different challenges each has experienced with this recipe are posted on this blog, there are many, but everyone has reached success. Rose's starter births, lives, and works, either as stiff or liquid, and you can use it for any recipe you want.

You are right, baking bread with sourdough is the most living thing, which means you get different results form hand to hand, place to place, flour to flour! THAT is how it is suppose to be.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | April 22, 2008 1:18 PM #

I have been trying to create a sourdough starter with practically no success whatsoever. There are innumerable ways to do it and the ones that I have tried do not work as instructed.

The first step, using organic rye flour, works well.

The second step, using industrial (common store-bought) bread flour, does not double; it rather becomes a liquid slurry and continues that way if fed.

Your method, using biological white flour in the second step rose to three cups - wow! But the following steps never doubled for the duration of the exercise.

And in a side by side bio/industrial comparison, the industrial never rose as much as the bio.

My wife, who is an incredible professional Chef with some 20 years experience in Europe with the greatest French and Italian chefs, is also puzzled and suggest I stop this nonsense and use the commercial starters and plain old yeast...

Perhaps one of the most important factors that no-one seems to consider is the fact that flour is a living thing and usually after three weeks it tends to go dead. So, in our military industrial complex, how much time do you think flour spends on the shelf or in transit?

Probably the best natural recipe I have seen is in Michael Pollan's "The Omnivore's Dilemma." I did start to try it, but it was a little too cold outside to give it a fair try... that's next.

Oh, well ... my wife is probably right that it is a waste of time to go through all this as there are commercially available starters and other tricks (methods) to get the same results.

I just want to add some small observations:
Most Internet recipes are really very, very unreliable as they rarely explain the reason for use of ingredients or execution methods. For instance, in a recipe for a type of sweet-sour Baltic rye bread, the author calls for boiling cider and pouring it over the rye dough, then cooling it, adding sourdough starter and then letting the mixture ferment for 24 hours...
Why pour a boiling mixture over the flour? Doesn't that kill all the enzymes in the flour?
In this recipe, using Rose's starter (which only produced, after 5 days, exactly 1 cup - as needed in the bread recipe) the fermentation only began after about 20 hours and then, continuing the recipe, the dough was so dense it tried to destroy my heavy-duty mixer... it did survive, but I'm trying to save the recipe through artificial respiration... :)

Reply to this      Posted by: Pippo Giordano | April 22, 2008 12:18 PM #

I've posted recently on this, but here more results on my No Knead Sourdough Bread.

These photos are for a double recipe on a 5 qt lodge non-enamel dutch oven pot.

When baking a single recipe (with the same 5 qt pot), you get a bread with bigger holes. The bread is much shorter, but if you dedicate yourself to slice the bread on a slant you can get nice tall slices (the upcoming birthday present of a Forschner bread knife should help).

The part I want to report that makes my job the simplest, is that I do all the rising in the same bowl, I don't use parchment nor oil nor corn meal nor slash. Call my recipe the no knead no mess bread!

I warn that this bread is a bit moist and spongy, but it makes the best toast or panini because you toast (and dry) the outside but the inside remains soft. It has an incredible shelf life, and the taste is unquestionable heaven.

Recipe calls for: In a 5 qt bowl (or larger) add 297 grams of water. Cut 255 grams of active stiff starter in 8 pieces with a bench scraper (or sizzors or knife). I particularly like to use the bench scraper because it is the easiest to wash (if you know what I mean to wash things with dough stuck on it). Cover and rest for 8 to 12 hours at room temp until starter has doubled. Starter will look like floating pieces of foamy dough.

Sprinkle 298 grams of bread flour, and sprinkle on top of the flour 10 grams of non-iodized salt (ok to use rock sea salt). Mix by hand, spoon, or spatula for 1 minute until things look loosely incorporated but still rough (I confess I often use the mixer's dough hook at stir speed for just 1 minute or 2). Cover and rest at room temperature until doubled in volume.

Turn on your oven. Preheat for 1 hour with the pot and lid to 475oF. Be sure to test temperature, as 25 degrees lower does make a difference (less holes). It does take 1 hour for the dutch oven to reach 475oF. Use convection if available. Tiles are not necessary. During this hour, dough should have risen more than double in volume.

Remove pot from the oven. Remove the lid. Pour dough in, gently but at once, using a wet silicone spatula, gently detach the dough from the bowl. Cover and return to oven for 5 minutes.

Remove the lid and turn the oven down to 400oF. Bake for 20 to 30 minutes until the bread looks done but the crust is only golden brown (not dark brown). Use convection if available.

Turn oven off, crack oven door ajar open, leave bread to cool (in oven, in pot) for 1 hour. Remove from oven (bread still in the pot) and leave to cool at room temp for 1 additional hour or until bread is able to detach from the pot when inverted upside down. This additional hour in the pot makes the bottom crust sweat slightly and contract so it detaches (literally on its own) from the pot. Cool on a rack until completely cook, or preferably overnight until you notice that the bottom crust has become crisp again.

Slice all the bread. Toast to serve. Tightly wrapped, keeps refrigerated for 1 week or frozen for several months. Do not allow moisture to form when thawing by thawing overnight in the refrigerator or quick thawing at room temperature still wrapped.

Enjoy (and do scroll down to see bonus picture of Luca's bread):

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/NoKneadSourdoughBread3.html

NOTE: I often bake pizza crust during the 1 hour preheat time. When I do this, I place an oven rack under or over and line it with tiles, and wait about 30 minutes (15 minutes only if convection is available and using a copper pizza pan). Tiles remain hot when opening/closing your oven doors or when cold food has been added, thus preheating time is minimally affected. Use convection if available.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | April 21, 2008 8:30 PM #

Thanks, Joel I'm feeling very reassured.

Reply to this      Posted by: Chad | April 6, 2008 11:15 AM #

My stiff starter is very forgiving, I sometimes forget to feed it and miss feedings by a few days up to a week, and it never fails to respond to feedings. Sometimes it leaks some water, but I pour it off, feed it, and everything's fine, the bread made from it still works exactly as written in the BB!

Reply to this      Posted by: Joel | April 6, 2008 3:59 AM #

Thanks for the reply, Hector. I'll slow down on the feeding. I'm very glad to hear I need only feed the stiff starter weekly. It'll be one week old tomorrow. Glad I haven't messed with it.
I'll let you know how it goes! (by the way - I love the shots on your website. Very cool creations!)

Reply to this      Posted by: Chad | April 5, 2008 11:42 PM #

Chad, welcome to the sour world!

What is happening to your liquid starter is that you are feeding it too often. Your room temperature and your refrigerator temperature can slow/speed the schedule. Try feeding it a day after, or leaving it out longer.

Regarding stiff starter, I feed mine's once a week (every 7 days).

And I believe, all your other inquiry is answered on this blog or on the BB.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | April 5, 2008 9:52 PM #

I think i may have a unique problem with my sourdough starter. I suceeded in making an active starter - took some patience and a few more days than the BB says, but I stuck with it and it worked. i baked a loaf last week and it was freaking great! Thanks Rose!
Instead of discarding the unused liquid starter, I was keeping it in the fridge, feeding every other day. I'd let it sit out for an hour or 2 after feeding, then return it to the fridge. Day by day it has stopped rising. Today it hardly responded to it's feeding. It's just a little bubbly with a little liquid on top. Should I just keep it out and treat it like a new starter with daily feedings of 2 parts flour to 1 part water? I'm so disappointed. I really wanted to taste a loaf of bread made from starter that had matured for 2 or 3 weeks. Siiiiigh. Where have I gone wrong?
I also still have the stiff starter that was set aside for future baking. I'm confused as to how often I should feed that. Once a week if I'm not going to use it for a while? More? Any advice would be really appreciated. I have loved reading through this discussion!

Reply to this      Posted by: Chad | April 5, 2008 6:54 PM #

Louise - what a great idea!

Reply to this      Posted by: Patrincia | March 15, 2008 6:24 PM #

I found a great an inexpensive substitute for a banneton. Rose suggests using a colander but warns to be careful when inverting the dough because it could deflate – because the dough will fill such a small amount of the colander. Well, I used an 8-½ fine mesh sieve with a handle. Of course, I had to suspend it in a bowl, which was easy because it has 2 grips on one side and the handle on the other. The dough reached almost the top when it was done rising. I have never seen a banneton, but I imagine it may be approximately the same size as the banneton and much less money. (It has to be lined with a kitchen towel) I made 3 loaves of sour dough today. 2 rose in a colander and one in this smaller sieve. There was a noticeable difference in the finished product – particularly the height – of the one made in the sieve. I am going to invest in a few more of these 8 ½ inch sieves and use them! Let me know if anyone else tries them. Louise

Reply to this      Posted by: Louise Allen | March 15, 2008 5:35 PM #

I did a side-by-side double blind test of the BB sourdough pumpernickel and the 5-minute pumpernickel – both with raisins. I first served a slice of both to a friend who chose the 5-minute bread. I was astounded – especially after all the time spent feeding and refeeding the starter – staying home so the bread would rise the correct amount of time – etc. If you are reading this blog – I do not need to tell you about making home made bread. Then I took both breads to a birthday lunch and gave a slice of each to 5 friends. Hands down – they all loved the BB sourdough pumpernickel and thought the 5-minute bread had a funny taste. They thought the BB bread was as good as any raisin pumpernickel they had at Joe’s Stone Crabs or any other great South Florida restaurant. So Rose – thanks for another great recipe! Louise

Reply to this      Posted by: Louise Allen | March 9, 2008 8:28 PM #

Joel, you made my day! your bread looks FANTASTIC, and the cracks are fantastic, too. The texture is near identical to what I've got.

I don't bother to slash my Basic Sourdough Bread and it is fun to see how the crack develop on its own.

Here some photos:

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/BasicSourdoughBreadALL.html

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | February 28, 2008 1:29 PM #

Oh re the ingredients, I think we're quite blessed in Singapore that we have a very vibrant expat co