When Rose wrote The Bread Bible, she was using flour with a 12.7 protein content.
We recommend adding some vital wheat gluten, a higher protein content flour, or extra flour if you have not already tried adding extra flour already.

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Woody - I am using Gold Medal bread flour.

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Hi Joan,
May we ask what flour you are using?

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I have tried the 'Low-Risk Sourdough Bread' (p473) twice using, as the recipe calls for, a liquid starter. The recipe cautions that the dough will be sticky - it was. Though I have slavishly followed the directions, my dough is SO moist, relevantly after the last rise, that I cannot invert it (frankly I cannot do anything with it) without completely deflating it. It refuses to hold any free form shape. Help

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good job Sherrie, Barney has a sister called Keiko at my kitchen!

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Thanks, Hector. I think I've got it figured out. I was getting a bit confused because there were directions in the introduction to sourdough part of TBB and then the recipe directions -- and there is, of course, some overlap. Good to know "Barney" will survive the odd lapse in feeding.

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Sherrie, you will love keeping the starter in the fridge as stiff. it only needs once a week feedings and it is pretty forgiving. often, i feed mines once every 3 weeks!

all recipes on TBB will indicate the specific starter needed, stiff or liquid. and yes, you will need to convert it as needed.

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I recently purchased a starter that I am feeding using equal weights flour and water as per the feeding directions in TBB. Am I understanding the following correctly:

The directions on P. 432-3 for cultivating a starter end up with a starter that is LIQUID rather than stiff. So, if I want to bake the breads in the Sourdough section, is it assumed that I'm using this liquid seed starter or that I have a stiff seed starter already established? It seems odd that the seed directions would be for liquid but the recipes require stiff a starter. Or are the recipes assuming the starter is liquid and are making the appropriate adjustments for this? I know there are conversions in the book to change from liquid to stiff, but I'd rather have the liquid starter in my fridge because it's more convenient to feed.

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Hi Rose,

Thanks again. I tried it and it turned out great! It should be called "Make him fall in love with you all over again rye bread". There is a loaf in the oven right now in fact, for Father's Day. I am new to bread baking and made my first loaf (your Basic Hearth Bread) a few months ago. Your book has been great for me so thank-you for writing it! I am going to try and start incorporating the starter into some of the other loaves next. Thanks again.

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Hi Rose! Thanks so much for your encouragement. I think the starter has become more 'energetic' and seems to be alright now. I am going to try it out for the sourdough rye bread in your recipe. I was going to refrigerate it overnight after the second feeding and then try and continue tomorrow. Your instructions say that there should be two rises of about 1 hour each, then a ~5 hour rise, and then 4 hours for final proofing after shaping. I was wondering, would it be possible to do let's say the first two rises of 1 hour each, then refrigerate overnight, and then continue the next day?

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Thank you so much for the quick reply. I think I understand I should convert the liquid starter to stiff and then "two nights before baking day, remove it from the frig...".

OK to use someof the liquid starter from the jar to convert to stiff and save the rest of the liquid sourdough starter for next time?

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I am soooo confused! Sometimes I feel as though I need to be a chemist! OK, so I have made the liquid starter and have fed it once a week and doing fine and have made a couple loaves of wonderful sourdough. I want to make the "Sourdough Wheat Bread" but am confused with the recipe. It call for 1/2 cup "stiff" starter. So, am I to take my liquid starter (how much?) out of the refrigerator "two nights before baking" and feed it like in step one to make the stiff starter or should I already have converted my liquid starter to a stiff starter by "expanding" it? I guess I don't understand the difference between expanding and feeding the starter.

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HI Rose,
Thank you for your help. The simplest thing, I forgot to look in the back of the book. I generally read cookbooks before I go to bed so I may not have been as alert. Just one more question please. Could you give me the percentages for bread to be made from a liquid starter? I was going to try the basic sourdough and have to admit, I'm a little overwhelmed and maybe impatient to try a stiff starter. The flour is 100% of the recipe. The liquid starter would then be...? The stiff starter is 2/3 flour and 1/3 water. The liquid is half and half? My brain is a little too far out from formal education to figure this out! Thanks so much for all your help. I can't believe you have time to answer questions. Much appreciation.
Ruth

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HI There,
I have a question regarding sourdough bread. I'd like to purchase a proofing basket. Do you have any recommendations for type, size and quality products? I'd rather invest just once. Also, is the basket air tight on the bottom and sides? I'd like to proof the last time in the fridge (for work schedule, etc.) overnight. My concern is drying it out. I've tried plastic wrap in a mixing bowl, but as it rose, it stuck to the plastic on the top. I have tried putting the shaped dough in the basket and then set it in an airtight cake saver, then in the fridge. My question is, should I cover the top of the shaped boule as well?
Hope this makes sense.
Thanks, Ruth

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Oh dear, try wait how long it takes to double up, sometimes it is just lazy or slow and all it needs is an additional 12 hours or a day to pick up again.

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Oh dear, try wait how long it takes to double up, sometimes it is just lazy or slow and all it needs is an additional 12 hours or a day to pick up again.

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I have been trying to create a sourdough starter from the instructions in The Bread Bible (page 432). I used organic rye flour and bottled water as instructed and everything went just as described for Day 1, Day 2, Day 3 and Day 4. And then it just stopped growing. I have continued to throw out half and feed it every day as directed but it isn't expanding at all and it has very few (like less than ten) bubbles on its surface before feeding. Now I am on Day 8. One thing I realized is that the Day 4 instructions say to throw out half of the starter (about 1/2 cup) and then feed it but in my case, it had expanded to almost 4 cups by day 4 so I threw out 3 1/2 cups to get it back down to 1/2 cup before feeding. Should I start over? Should I try feeding it with half bread flour and half rye flour one time to give it a boost? Thanks.

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Thank you so much for the response! It is amazing to be able to ask you questions! We will keep at it. I'm very excited to make bread now.

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I did not, however, realize that I was supposed to throw out the liquid that had accumulated on the surface (seems obvious now).

I've never heard you're supposed to throw that out, either. So I never do.

When I refresh, I'll double or triple the weight, then leave it at room temp for 4-6 hours until it begins to bubble well, then I'll put it back in the fridge.

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Rose-

My boyfriend was recently given a starter that dates back to the 1800's. Neither of us, however, have ever maintained a starter before and it was left in the fridge for over a week until I began to worry about it. I read around on the internet quickly and decided to add some flour and water--I did not, however, realize that I was supposed to throw out the liquid that had accumulated on the surface (seems obvious now). Bubbles did begin to appear which gave me hope. I then turned to the Bread Bible and have made it into a stiff starter but I'm wondering if it will still be good and worth pursuing or if we should just let it go.

Thanks!

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Oh, I forgot to add, I'm on day 7

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Hi there. Thank you for writing a wonderful book. My question is this: I'm trying to make a starter. initially, I used course pumpernickel flour, rather than finer rye flour on "day 1," and since have been feeding it daily with bread flour as directed in your book. The starter appears fine, good colour, and has a wonderful sourdough aroma, but all it's doing is producing bubbles. not rising at all. Is it ready, or should I keep feeding it at room temp (about 65 degrees in our house)? Thanks in advance.

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From Luca:

so.... the basic sourdough bread is superior to my basic heart bread converted into sourdough.

It's softer, and milder. It's airy and fluffy, with a nice crispy crust.
It's also way more complicated! I ended up using a home-made banneton (colander, lined with tea towel).

So I am probably going to try and make that for a while, but:
1- I am going to double the recipe to make a larger bread
2- I am going to make it on a loaf pan, and not free form it

I am very surprised by the fact that it's a lot milder than my bread.
This obviously comes from the fact that it uses 25 grams of started. My recipe used 240 grams!!!

The timing is very complicated. It's like this:
1- 25 grams expanded to 75grams, wait 6 hours
2- discard, keep 50, expand to 50, wait 6 hours
3- mix dough, wait 20 minutes, add starter, wait 1 hour, deflate/fold, wait 1 hour, deflate/fold, wait 5 hours
4- shape, wait 4 hours
5- bake
So.. it's a 23 hours, but without a 12 hours period in the middle where you can sleep!

The only possibility is that you can refrigerate after phase 2, up to 20 hours So here is the possible schedule:
Day1: wake up, do step 1, go to work
Day1: come home for lunch, do step 2, go to work
Day1: come back from work, put starter in the fridge at 6pm Day2:go home for early lunch! at 11. Do phase 3. Will take until 1.30pm
Day2: come home do phase 4.. wait until 10pm
Day2: bake.. and go to bed.

!!!

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Just a thought to all our bread bakers out there. The rising costs of energy and the awakening to be more environmental friendly, don't you think that preheating your oven for the needed 1 hours, plus about 1 more hour for bread baking, is a waste of energy? See, bread was invented to be baked in wood burning ovens or chimneys or heating appliances which remained turned on 24 hours a day, and also used for other needs like heating water, drying clothes, etc.

So I propose, for us looking for basic bread, to slice, freeze and toast, for our daily bread supply, how about we steam? Coming from the concept of Chinese steamed buns. It takes minutes to "heat" the steamer, and minutes to steam cook the buns. Then, I could air dry the buns for a day or so, then slice and store/freeze. I think a toast made out of a slice of steamed bun will taste great!

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Sherry, thank you so much for reporting back. Yes, no ice is needed when using a dutch oven with cover. Temperature s/b the same or perhaps 25 degrees lower if it is a dark non-enamel dutch oven that normally gives you darker bottom crusts, but I find that using parchment prevents this.

I am so happy for you!

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Hello Hector,

Just wanted to report that the basic hearth bread made with sourdough turned out awesome! I had it all mixed by 8:00 last night and got up at 6:00 this morning to check it. It was just starting to climb out of my 2 qt. measuring cup...so didn't take quite 12 hrs. to rise. I baked it in my dutch oven...covered for 10 minutes, uncovered for 25. I wasn't sure if the oven temp. should be the same as the original recipe or if I should still use ice cubes since the pot was covered. I let it rise on parchment and left it under the bread in the pot. It was more sour than the basic sourdough...which we like. Thanks for all your help!

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sherry, great find.

no, your starter isn't ruined, just don't get in the habit. it normally takes more than one mistake to ruin Rose's starter.

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Louise, I do that all the time! No worries.

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Oh my...I'm sorry...I feel bad about wanting to copy the recipe. After getting your reply I got on Amazon and ordered a book...yes, for less than $20.00.

Hopefully, my starter isn't ruined. I actually used 100 gr starter, 100 of flour, and 50 of water. I had just 23 grams left over, so guess I can do something with that if the big one doesn't work.

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Due to Passover – it has been 2 weeks since I fed my starters. They looked ok – nothing green or other funny color. It did smell “yeasty” – a bit like bad wine. Also, even though it was stiff starter it seemed a little liquidy. Do you think it is ok? Thanks, Louise

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Hi Sherry, first and most lets remember how is it possible that we are in this blog. Due to Rose, that has spent her life writing the books. It isn't legal to copy the book in any form, even less legal to share it. I would buy a used book and give it to my friend! You will be amazing how inexpensive and fast that is. Even new, I've found TBB as low as $20.

Regarding refrigerated starter. Refrigerator "does nothing" to the starter. It just retards it, slows the activity. If you don't have enough starter then you can quickly expand it by feeding it every time it doubles, kept at room temperature.

Now, I NEVER feed my starter more flour than what it says on TBB. If you have 50 grams of starter, you add 50 grams of flour and 25 of water: that is a total of 125 grams of starter. Leave it at room temp until it doubles, about 8 hours. Now add 125 grams of flour and 63 grams of water: That is a total of 313 grams. Leave it room temp until it doubles, it will take less than 8 hours. Now you have enough for the 241 grams to make bread and 70 plus-so to keep.

The reason I don't want to just dump A-WHOLE-LOT of flour/water into the starter is because you risk contamination. The starter would be so little to take over the new flour, that outside bacteria may take in first, and you don't want that.

There is no last word said on sourdough baking.

Oh, I don't add whole wheat to the Basic Heart Bread. The recipe calls for whole wheat just to add more flavor. The starter will give you plenty of it!

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Thank you so much for taking time to answer my many questions...it really does sound like you're alREADY the Sourdough Boy! :-) I just have a couple more questions and I promise to bake the bread before posting again.

I considered myself lucky that today was day 5 for my starter...the perfect time to use it...BUT, when I took it out I remembered that I never have 241 grams, so I fed it double what I usually do and it has been on the counter for 2 hrs. You mentioned that freshly fed could be used, but it would take longer to rise. I'm thinking about mixing it tonight and letting it rise overnight. Will that work or would it be better to put it in the fridge for a few days? Also, out of the 322 grams of fresh flour how much should be whole wheat?

I am very interested in trying the DO for baking so will do a search on this website to see how. I'm sure you probably have it posted, huh?!

Now to change the subject. What do you do for friends who ask for a recipe from Rose's BB? They're so long to type out. Are they posted somewhere...is it legal to take them to Kinko's and copy them? My friend isn't interested in the whole book since he only likes to bake sourdough....mainly, pancakes, waffles, and biscuits, but he loves the bread I make from TBB and I'd like to share it with him.

Thanks again for being so helpful!

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Thanks Sherry. Bread doesn't wait, so I have to answer asap as I can.

There is no better compliment and admiration to know that your math equals to mine's. YES, you got it right.

Regarding when to use the starter. Overall to make bread, it is best to use the starter when is at its most active state (it has just reached double). For a refrigerated starter is normally on day 5. But honestly, IT NO MATTERS. If your starter is at a less active state or freshly fed, the first rise will just take longer, but will take!

For a less sour bread, refresh your starter once or twice without refrigeration, keeping at room temp until it doubles. It is like the beginning of the Basic Sourdough Recipe.

I don't have Bread Bible with me right now, so not sure when is Step 4. But quickly you got it right: mix all the ingredients you just mathed out (note 322.8 is the amount of fresh flour, not total flour which means fresh flour plus flour contained in the starter).

Sometimes I blanket, sometimes I don't. When you blanket you get more even bread holes as the flour has more even hydration, perfect for loaf bread. But I like holes, so often I don't blanket. When no time, no blanket.

After you mix all these, for about 5-7 minutes, let it rise until doubled, it will take around 12 hours. I do add the honey, too, I find makes things speedier and higher rise. Don't forget the 10 grams of salt, too. Helps to break the starter in small pieces first, but really if you don't, after the 5-7 minutes of mixing.

The Costco Red Star Active Dry Yeast is the one I use for Rose's BB recipes. But I haven't touched it for years, since I am trying to be the next Sourdough Boy!

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Good morning, Hector. I now have 2 frothy cups of liquid starter. I put one half in the fridge like you suggested and fed the other half. In four hours the one on the counter had doubled and the chilled one hadn't risen at all...maybe it wasn't supposed to since it was cold? Anyway, I combined the two, fed it again and let it set overnight. It looks and smells great! I wasn't as happy with the quick version as with the basic recipe, but I might try it again and refrigerate it overnight before baking it to see if the sourness is more pronounced.

I am anxious to try the hearth bread now and want to make sure I understand your instructions before I start. I use stiff starter INSTEAD of the yeast? And, it would be starter that I've refreshed the day before, right?...and, if I did the math right I would use 322.8 g total flour, 241.57 water, and 241.8 g stiff starter? I mix everything at once...meaning no flour blanket over sponge? In step 4 instead of a 1 hr. rise it will take 12? If time is a problem can I refrigerate either before or after the rise? Oh, and how do I figure how much whole wheat flour since I included that in the total weight?

One other question...I use Red Star Active Dry Yeast from Costco. Is the instant yeast called for in Rose's recipes different?

THANKS!!! Don't feel like you have to answer in a big hurry. I can see that you help a lot of people on this blog.

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I hear you..... regarding making it in less time. If that is the case, Luca is making fantastic Basic Heart Bread with the stiff sourdough conversion. He uses Gold Medal bread flour.

You mix all the ingredients at once, let it rise to double. This first rise takes about 12 hours, is very slow. Then, gently and without deflating as much as possible, do 3 business letter turns at once. Transfer to loaf pan and rise until doubled. This final rise takes only 1 hour or so: meanwhile preheat oven, stone, and cast iron pan.

Bake on stone, use ice cubes on preheated cast iron pan.

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/BasicHeartBreadSourdoughLoaf.html

You can also do final rise on parchment as a boule, and bake free form (with parchment still, on the baking stone).

THAT is Luca's work. Meanwhile, I am developing my recipe for no-knead sourdough bread, and my preferred method of baking bread is using a dutch oven (just a matter of convenience)

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Thanks Hector!

I'm going to try your suggestion right now...will let you know the results. I normally use the stiff starter and recipe for Basic Sourdough, but was just curious to see if I like this bread as well...it takes a lot less time. :-)

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Sherry, what an interesting question and very useful tip. You can do either way. Your starter is active and alive now since it has doubled.

If you feed it again now, you would further increase the concentration of ambient yeast, but I don't think it is necessary.

There is one assertive way to decide: split your starter in half now, feed half and store the other half. See what happens to each, if not much difference then you can just combined after done with your experiment, or bake.

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Hi,

Today I am trying the Low Risk Sourdough Bread and had to use all of my liquid starter. However, I was able to scrape the sides of the jar and get just a small amount to which I added 1/2 c. bread flour and 1/4 c. water. It has now doubled and is bubbly. My question is...should I feed it again now or refrigerate it and start my regular weekly feeding schedule until I have it built back up? Thanks for anyone's help.

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Pippo, I hear your frustration as many of us have too! Thanks for sharing.

I give you my word, that The Bread Bible recipe to make your sourdough starter works. The discussions on the different challenges each has experienced with this recipe are posted on this blog, there are many, but everyone has reached success. Rose's starter births, lives, and works, either as stiff or liquid, and you can use it for any recipe you want.

You are right, baking bread with sourdough is the most living thing, which means you get different results form hand to hand, place to place, flour to flour! THAT is how it is suppose to be.

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I have been trying to create a sourdough starter with practically no success whatsoever. There are innumerable ways to do it and the ones that I have tried do not work as instructed.

The first step, using organic rye flour, works well.

The second step, using industrial (common store-bought) bread flour, does not double; it rather becomes a liquid slurry and continues that way if fed.

Your method, using biological white flour in the second step rose to three cups - wow! But the following steps never doubled for the duration of the exercise.

And in a side by side bio/industrial comparison, the industrial never rose as much as the bio.

My wife, who is an incredible professional Chef with some 20 years experience in Europe with the greatest French and Italian chefs, is also puzzled and suggest I stop this nonsense and use the commercial starters and plain old yeast...

Perhaps one of the most important factors that no-one seems to consider is the fact that flour is a living thing and usually after three weeks it tends to go dead. So, in our military industrial complex, how much time do you think flour spends on the shelf or in transit?

Probably the best natural recipe I have seen is in Michael Pollan's "The Omnivore's Dilemma." I did start to try it, but it was a little too cold outside to give it a fair try... that's next.

Oh, well ... my wife is probably right that it is a waste of time to go through all this as there are commercially available starters and other tricks (methods) to get the same results.

I just want to add some small observations:
Most Internet recipes are really very, very unreliable as they rarely explain the reason for use of ingredients or execution methods. For instance, in a recipe for a type of sweet-sour Baltic rye bread, the author calls for boiling cider and pouring it over the rye dough, then cooling it, adding sourdough starter and then letting the mixture ferment for 24 hours...
Why pour a boiling mixture over the flour? Doesn't that kill all the enzymes in the flour?
In this recipe, using Rose's starter (which only produced, after 5 days, exactly 1 cup - as needed in the bread recipe) the fermentation only began after about 20 hours and then, continuing the recipe, the dough was so dense it tried to destroy my heavy-duty mixer... it did survive, but I'm trying to save the recipe through artificial respiration... :)

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I've posted recently on this, but here more results on my No Knead Sourdough Bread.

These photos are for a double recipe on a 5 qt lodge non-enamel dutch oven pot.

When baking a single recipe (with the same 5 qt pot), you get a bread with bigger holes. The bread is much shorter, but if you dedicate yourself to slice the bread on a slant you can get nice tall slices (the upcoming birthday present of a Forschner bread knife should help).

The part I want to report that makes my job the simplest, is that I do all the rising in the same bowl, I don't use parchment nor oil nor corn meal nor slash. Call my recipe the no knead no mess bread!

I warn that this bread is a bit moist and spongy, but it makes the best toast or panini because you toast (and dry) the outside but the inside remains soft. It has an incredible shelf life, and the taste is unquestionable heaven.

Recipe calls for: In a 5 qt bowl (or larger) add 297 grams of water. Cut 255 grams of active stiff starter in 8 pieces with a bench scraper (or sizzors or knife). I particularly like to use the bench scraper because it is the easiest to wash (if you know what I mean to wash things with dough stuck on it). Cover and rest for 8 to 12 hours at room temp until starter has doubled. Starter will look like floating pieces of foamy dough.

Sprinkle 298 grams of bread flour, and sprinkle on top of the flour 10 grams of non-iodized salt (ok to use rock sea salt). Mix by hand, spoon, or spatula for 1 minute until things look loosely incorporated but still rough (I confess I often use the mixer's dough hook at stir speed for just 1 minute or 2). Cover and rest at room temperature until doubled in volume.

Turn on your oven. Preheat for 1 hour with the pot and lid to 475oF. Be sure to test temperature, as 25 degrees lower does make a difference (less holes). It does take 1 hour for the dutch oven to reach 475oF. Use convection if available. Tiles are not necessary. During this hour, dough should have risen more than double in volume.

Remove pot from the oven. Remove the lid. Pour dough in, gently but at once, using a wet silicone spatula, gently detach the dough from the bowl. Cover and return to oven for 5 minutes.

Remove the lid and turn the oven down to 400oF. Bake for 20 to 30 minutes until the bread looks done but the crust is only golden brown (not dark brown). Use convection if available.

Turn oven off, crack oven door ajar open, leave bread to cool (in oven, in pot) for 1 hour. Remove from oven (bread still in the pot) and leave to cool at room temp for 1 additional hour or until bread is able to detach from the pot when inverted upside down. This additional hour in the pot makes the bottom crust sweat slightly and contract so it detaches (literally on its own) from the pot. Cool on a rack until completely cook, or preferably overnight until you notice that the bottom crust has become crisp again.

Slice all the bread. Toast to serve. Tightly wrapped, keeps refrigerated for 1 week or frozen for several months. Do not allow moisture to form when thawing by thawing overnight in the refrigerator or quick thawing at room temperature still wrapped.

Enjoy (and do scroll down to see bonus picture of Luca's bread):

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/NoKneadSourdoughBread3.html

NOTE: I often bake pizza crust during the 1 hour preheat time. When I do this, I place an oven rack under or over and line it with tiles, and wait about 30 minutes (15 minutes only if convection is available and using a copper pizza pan). Tiles remain hot when opening/closing your oven doors or when cold food has been added, thus preheating time is minimally affected. Use convection if available.

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Thanks, Joel I'm feeling very reassured.

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My stiff starter is very forgiving, I sometimes forget to feed it and miss feedings by a few days up to a week, and it never fails to respond to feedings. Sometimes it leaks some water, but I pour it off, feed it, and everything's fine, the bread made from it still works exactly as written in the BB!

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Thanks for the reply, Hector. I'll slow down on the feeding. I'm very glad to hear I need only feed the stiff starter weekly. It'll be one week old tomorrow. Glad I haven't messed with it.
I'll let you know how it goes! (by the way - I love the shots on your website. Very cool creations!)

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Chad, welcome to the sour world!

What is happening to your liquid starter is that you are feeding it too often. Your room temperature and your refrigerator temperature can slow/speed the schedule. Try feeding it a day after, or leaving it out longer.

Regarding stiff starter, I feed mine's once a week (every 7 days).

And I believe, all your other inquiry is answered on this blog or on the BB.

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I think i may have a unique problem with my sourdough starter. I suceeded in making an active starter - took some patience and a few more days than the BB says, but I stuck with it and it worked. i baked a loaf last week and it was freaking great! Thanks Rose!
Instead of discarding the unused liquid starter, I was keeping it in the fridge, feeding every other day. I'd let it sit out for an hour or 2 after feeding, then return it to the fridge. Day by day it has stopped rising. Today it hardly responded to it's feeding. It's just a little bubbly with a little liquid on top. Should I just keep it out and treat it like a new starter with daily feedings of 2 parts flour to 1 part water? I'm so disappointed. I really wanted to taste a loaf of bread made from starter that had matured for 2 or 3 weeks. Siiiiigh. Where have I gone wrong?
I also still have the stiff starter that was set aside for future baking. I'm confused as to how often I should feed that. Once a week if I'm not going to use it for a while? More? Any advice would be really appreciated. I have loved reading through this discussion!

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Louise - what a great idea!

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I found a great an inexpensive substitute for a banneton. Rose suggests using a colander but warns to be careful when inverting the dough because it could deflate – because the dough will fill such a small amount of the colander. Well, I used an 8-½ fine mesh sieve with a handle. Of course, I had to suspend it in a bowl, which was easy because it has 2 grips on one side and the handle on the other. The dough reached almost the top when it was done rising. I have never seen a banneton, but I imagine it may be approximately the same size as the banneton and much less money. (It has to be lined with a kitchen towel) I made 3 loaves of sour dough today. 2 rose in a colander and one in this smaller sieve. There was a noticeable difference in the finished product – particularly the height – of the one made in the sieve. I am going to invest in a few more of these 8 ½ inch sieves and use them! Let me know if anyone else tries them. Louise

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I did a side-by-side double blind test of the BB sourdough pumpernickel and the 5-minute pumpernickel – both with raisins. I first served a slice of both to a friend who chose the 5-minute bread. I was astounded – especially after all the time spent feeding and refeeding the starter – staying home so the bread would rise the correct amount of time – etc. If you are reading this blog – I do not need to tell you about making home made bread. Then I took both breads to a birthday lunch and gave a slice of each to 5 friends. Hands down – they all loved the BB sourdough pumpernickel and thought the 5-minute bread had a funny taste. They thought the BB bread was as good as any raisin pumpernickel they had at Joe’s Stone Crabs or any other great South Florida restaurant. So Rose – thanks for another great recipe! Louise

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Joel, you made my day! your bread looks FANTASTIC, and the cracks are fantastic, too. The texture is near identical to what I've got.

I don't bother to slash my Basic Sourdough Bread and it is fun to see how the crack develop on its own.

Here some photos:

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/BasicSourdoughBreadALL.html

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Oh re the ingredients, I think we're quite blessed in Singapore that we have a very vibrant expat community! Most regular supermarkets stock a pretty good range of grains and flours and stuff, some of my favourites come from Bob's Red Mill, they have almost everything I need to bake through Rose's book, save for the Durum flour, bah. We even have baking supply shops that sell loads of hard to find ingredients at pretty low prices.

Are you coming to Singapore anytime soon, then? Baking is a joy here!

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Thank you Beth! I actually use a pizza stone, they're quite readily available here. The bottoms of my breads burn a little bit, though, I've been adjusting the rack position but it still happens. I think I might need two layers, my stone is a little under 1 cm thick.

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Speaking of mills, I will be getting one at some point. I think I've decided against the Kitchen Aid, because I've read that it can cause the breakdown of other parts in the machine. One can get a grain mill attachment for my juicer (champion), but it only does 1 cup of flour in five minutes, so that seems pretty dreadful to me. I'm thinking of the one that used to be called Whispermill, because it's fast and quiet. Of course one could always get the hand crank version. My husband doesn't see why I should get one, but everything I've read about freshly-ground whole wheat sounds very appealing. And some of the grinders can make chickpea flour, etc., and that sounds interesting also. So, I guess I'm asking if anyone has any raves or regrets about various mills.

Actually, I think someone wrote into the new forum last week, but I don't know if there were any answers.

Congratulations, Joel. You've had fantastic success. Did you bake your bread on a stone (i.e., do you have one available?)

This tempts me to make bread when in countries other than the U.S., but it can be tough. Last year I had tried to find flax seed meal, for instance, in Italy, and couldn't. I don't know if they had the seeds either. This comes to mind because I made a great struan yesterday with polenta, cooked 10-grain cereal, oats, and flaxseed meal.

Beth

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Well I do have a Kitchenaid, haha!

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Thank you! Especially for your marvellous marvellous books, I am trying the Olive Bread tomorrow, and just the thought of it is delicious!

It's a pity we can't get durum flour over here, the best I've found is semolina flour, but it won't work I guess. I would love to try the pugliese, after the success of the ciabatta, I can imagine it will be just as wonderful.

After all this bread baking, I'm tempted to switch to a diet of bread and butter just for kicks, haha.

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The sourness is quite unlike anything I've tasted before! A simple spread of butter makes this taste almost of cheese. It really is worth all that fuss over the starter, which is behaving so well now, it deserves a little gold star.

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Oh my, it does it does

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The starter worked like a dream! I was so amazed how reliably everything went along, the rising times and volumes and weights and everything were incredibly accurate, Rose!

I know it's nothing to look at, haha, (the gash is actually a result of the dough splitting apart by itself when I turned it out of my colander!), but when I think that it's leavened with wild culture, it makes me happy! I'm waiting for it to cool, I hope it tastes great!

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OHHH okay!

So out of the 125g, for this recipe, 25g goes to the bread, 50g is stored and 50g is discarded! I misread the "discard any remaining starter" to mean discard both the 50g storage starter and the 50g excess starter.

I see so clearly now, wow.

Haha, so how does it work in my case, cuz I need to store at least 240g to mature?

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Joel, I am confused, too, and don't see why you need to keep 300 or 240 gr of starter!

This is what I keep and what I discard (yes, dump in the trash, or freeze for other recipes).

My storage starter is stiff. 125 grams ONLY. I place in the refrigerator NOT airtight but protected. Yes, the lid will blow off if airtight. I like to use a glass jar with a screw lid, but I don't screw the cap all the way, then I wrap the lid with plastic wrap to keep things more protected but still permissible to prevent an explosion.

Once a week, I make bread. So I have 125 grams of 1 week old starter. I divide this into 50 grams for storage starter, 25 grams to make bread, and 50 grams to discard.

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Okay, I'm going to go ahead with the basic sourdough loaf (but of course!).

I am having some confusion, and I hope someone can clear it up.

It says on p. 445 that I need to "feed (refresh) some of the sourdough starter for future batches of bread", and then later, on p. 446, it says in step 1 to "tear off a scant 2 tablespoons of the sourdough starter (discard any remaining starter)".

What I understand from this is that out of the starter I refresh for storage, ie. the 125g, I will pluck off 2 tbs. The part I don't get is that I'm supposed to throw the rest away? So is the storage starter the 125g or the main bulk from which I tear off the 50g to make the 125g?

I think until I sort it out, I'm going to maintain 300g not 240g of starter for maturation, so that I have enough to pluck off for bread while saving at least 240g for storage.

Anyway, thank you Rose and Hector for your advice on the starter, mine is very, very active. After converting the liquid into stiff starter, I put it in a smallish plastic container, thinking it wouldn't rise that much, and the cover blew off in 1 hour. I can't wait to taste what kind of bacteria we have here in the tropics, morbid as it sounds :p

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Joel, go for it! and pls report back.

Stiff storage starter ratio is 2-2-1 (starter, flour, water). So 96g-96g-48g, totals to 240g, so you are correct.

I follow 50g-50g-25g, as I find this amount sufficient. Whenever I bake giants, I just expand it on a matter of a day or so, by leaving at room temp and doing the 2-2-1 every time the starter has doubled in volume (about every 6 hours, overnights, depends on the room temperature and how active your starter is, sometimes it takes only 2 hours!!!).

Please use bottled water or filtered tap water (britta ie) every time you feed your starter. Tap water, specially chlorinated can kill or retard. Other minerals in tap water (specially acid rain and pesticides) may streak your starter with gray hair!

Don't use distilled water, as you do need minerals for flavor.

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Okay, I've decided I might want to try baking with the starter sooner, so what I've done is to convert the starter into a stiff one. Can I ask, though, that to store "at least 1 cup" of the stiff starter, 240g, that I pluck off 96g of the old starter and expand it by 2.5 times to 240g, rather than 50g to 125g as per the instructions? Because I don't know how else to store at least 1 cup of stiff starter and feed it for the next 2 weeks.

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Woah I woke up this morning and the starter had receded as if nothing happened last night. I figured I'd move on with the steps in the book, so I've fed it and am waiting to see if it doubles. I think it'll take a while before I can actually use it, since I have to keep 1 cup of it for maturing, but I'll be patient again and I know everything'll be fine!

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Hi Beth, your breads sounds heavenly. I don't have a banneton although it would be the traditional way. Breads that need one are the ones that would spread sideways too much if risen without side supports like Basic Sourdough Bread. What I do is rise on parchment on a skillet or bowl for round loaves. For bigger breads I place the round the dough and place on parchment on a large rectangle of corrugated cardboard folded in half lengthwise like a V-shaped boat. The V sides prevents the dough to spread sideways too much.

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Joel, if the starter is rising or even just bubbling, then it is active.

I think you are good to go and CONGRATULATIONS.

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Yay yay,

I can't say for sure if my starter is active, but it's beginning to get a little more frisky, yesterday it expanded quite a bit then deflated just in time for feeding. Tonight, I added in half rye half bread flour and I don't know if it's a good thing but the starter is surging upwards as we speak, almost doubling within a matter of 3 hours!

Thank you for your patience, haha, patience really is the key!

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My boule turned out fine yesterday, other than browning a bit too much on top. Since I still don't have a banneton, I made it free-form. This was the French country recipe from BB. I made it with an active sourdough culture, and also put in some yeast. Would this be a good recipe to try with my Romertopf lid? I didn't see the cloche recommended, so I didn't try it. I must say that I finally broke down and bought the Artisan Bread in 5 book after my mother keeps raving about it. She doesn't bake bread, but her friends do. I made a rye loaf last week, and it was quite good [and my husband said "why do you want to spend the time to make Rose's recipe"?](haven't made Rose's sourdough rye yet - I wanted to compare the two, but had had enough rye bread for one week). Yesterday, when I made the French country boule, I noted how wonderful it felt to do my business turns, and feel the dough change. Somehow I don't feel like I'm really satisfying my "bread bliss" if I don't do more work. I must say that I've never tried the famous no-knead bread. Also, I've recently discovered thefreshloaf.com. I encourage Rose's blog members to give it a try. There are many videos (which I haven't watched yet), and quite a lot of activity regarding various bread problems.

Saluti, Beth

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sometimes you keep feeding and feeding your starter, and this is what you end up with,

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/BasicSourdoughBreadMostrito.html

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Beth--don't have the BB in front of me, but I believe there is a variation under the basic sourdough that is the French country boule--Rose repeated the recipe later with the low risk instructions. Did you already check there?

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http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/BasicSourdoughBreadMostrito.html

Freeform at its best!

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Joel, as Rose said, perhaps the only instruction left out on the recipe is 'patience.'

You are only on day 7. It took me 40 days! (so biblical). Keep the feeding schedule and as long as you see 'some' activity you are ok. Whenever I see low activity as you describe, I would skip 1 day of feeding only if I could, otherwise keep on with the recipe's feeding schedule.

The beauty of sourdough is that it varies depending on your conditions. Many people call sourdough bread bakers the "real" people.

I am in a middle of a possible catastrophe right now. I am making one giant Basic Sourdough Bread, from 1300 gr of stiff starter. I hope it does not outgrow my oven. It will go in the oven in about 15 minutes.

Regarding steam, you can place a cast iron pizza pan on your bottom rack, then bake on the rack right above it which should have the tiles. Hopefully you still clearance.

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Hello, everyone. I'm planning on making the French Country Sourdough Boule for the first time tomorrow. I've been playing with my starter lately, and I'd like to use that instead of the Palvain Pain de Campagne, which I don't have. So, I will use 100 grams of liquid sourdough starter, but I'd also like to use some yeast. Should I use the 1/4 teaspoon suggested, or should I cut it back to 1/8 teaspoon? Also, would this be something to try out the Romertopf for the first time, or should I use just use the baking stone with the ice cubes? Thanks so much.

Beth

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Help!

My starters aren't doing very well...

I've switched to Gold Medal Better for Bread flour for the feedings, and the starters have responded with nothing more than some very frothy bubbles on the surface. This is day 7! And there's been no increase in volume at all. I am going to just keep up with the feedings, but then comes another problem... 120g of starter seems to be a lot more than just half of what I have. I'm so puzzled, I've taken great care in weighing everything, but the weights keep fluctuating. It seems the starters never seem to recover from each feeding, they're staying dismally low, slightly under 1/4 of my jar. I hope I haven't done anything wrong, my only consolation is that there aren't any streaks of colour...

That said, I am very happy with the steam cleaner I bought for injecting steam into my oven. The ice method doesn't work very well for my oven, because of the exposed bottom elements, and the steam bread maker will be too expensive by the time it ships over here, so this is the best I can do for now. It seems to work because my bread started to SING for the first time after baking, I left it on the rack, expecting nothing interesting, and then I heard the loudest, most beguiling snaps. I'm just a little concerned that when I inject the steam in, both with my cleaner and if using ice, the white cloud disappears completely, and the glass doesn't fog up. I am hoping this is because the oven temperature is way too hot for the steam to be visible and to condense on the glass!

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I had placed basically the same comment on a different one of Rose's posts...but, yes, Costco & Sam's Club sell bleached bread flour. Just a quick comment on the sourdough starter. I began a starter with a mixture of rye, bran, whole wheat and have been feeding it now for about 5 days with the whole wheat and water Yesterday, I put a pinch of Lora Brody's Bread Dough Enhancer in it just to see what would happen (I like experimenting). Almost overnight it doubled and is bubbling along just fine. Smells good too.

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I had placed basically the same comment on a different one of Rose's posts...but, yes, Costco & Sam's Club sell bleached bread flour. Just a quick comment on the sourdough starter. I began a starter with a mixture of rye, bran, whole wheat and have been feeding it now for about 5 days with the whole wheat and water Yesterday, I put a pinch of Lora Brody's Bread Dough Enhancer in it just to see what would happen (I like experimenting). Almost overnight it doubled and is bubbling along just fine. Smells good too.

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I switched over to Gold Medal from King Arthur after watching your lecture Rose. I've really enjoyed working with the Harvest King so far--ciabatta I made recently was wonderful. I can't wait to try challah again with HK.

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Then again, I could be wrong... the local brand never makes a distinction between bleached and unbleached, though I am certain the AP is bleached. The starter with Gold Medal seems to be acting up a little more, though, more bubbles after 5 hours.

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maybe to prolong shelf life of the flour?

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OMG, now you have 2 named starters, I sense you will become a hard core sourdough-er as many of us on Rose's blog.

I've never heard of using boiled water, I suspect it will lack of minerals and bacteria which can be beneficial for the starter. For the first week of birth, I used bottled water. After that, I use Britta filtered water (which removes only chlorine and chemical toxins, but not minerals nor biologics nor bacteria).

I have been doing my weekly feedings with "bleached" bread flour, bought at Costco, ConAgra brand. It gave me excellent results. I was told that bleached flour does not exist, but indeed this bag of flour says bleached, but perhaps is isn't all that bleached as the color is much darker than AP bleached.

You almost makes me want to birth a new starter!

Mine's is named Keiko, and right now there are clones of it in Veneto (Italy), Hilo (Hawaii), and Kaimuki (Oahu).

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Heya!

I have a feeling the bread flour I am using (a local brand) is actually bleached, so instead of throwing out half the starter today, I decided to put it into a separate jar and try out some variables. I used unbleached AP (Gold Medal!) instead of the local bread flour and tried using half unboiled water and half boiled water. I have a strange feeling that, having used boiled water all the while, something of a nutritive spark might've gone out of the water. Twiddling my thumbs as we speak, and I have a feeling the new starter will yield some interesting results (I've called them Bilbo and Frodo, by respective, erm, age). In the meantime, I shall go buy a bag or two of Gold Medal Better for Bread flour, I think it's a worthwhile investment!

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Joel, hang in there, you are fine!

Just so you know, that even for my proven starter, when I do the weekly feedings, sometimes the starter does not rise at all!

Use unbleached flour for feedings (AP or bread), organic not necessary at this point since you are a week old already. "don't" use whole wheat flour as wheat is harder to digest and retards the feeding process.

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Hey all, I'm here to report on my strange-behaving starter again.

I'm surprised that, for all its initial activity, it has not, on Day 5 even, increased in volume to 3 cups! The top is very bubbly and everything, but it seems to have risen only very slightly. I think it is at the Day 4 stage, really, because it is giving off a slightly more pleasant citrusy aroma now, rather than the pungent sourness of the first few days. Does the high bubble activity mean the starter is active, or do I have to actually see it swell over?

How queer...

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I learned something interesting about the pumpernickel. I used the dough to make rolls and also tried bagels which were boiled. The bagels did not taste like bagels, but the everyone liked the finsihed product better. The dough's flavor was enhanced and mellowed by the boiling and then baking. I am having a dinner party this weekend and am going to try boiling the rolls before I bake them.
Louise

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Joel, THANK YOU!

I hope you take some time (if not already done so) to read Rose's soulful introduction on The Bread Bible (TBB). It is written on my heart when she says something like she almost did not want to do this book because bread baking is more variable and you don't always get the consistent results you are used to when cake baking!

You are going to love your self birth starter. Hope you store it as a refrigerated stiff starter with weekly feeding, it is a bit simpler than a liquid starter.

By the way, for Valentines Day, I made a "quick thin crust pizza." I will not need to discard any old starter anymore (and I think Rose doesn't discard hers neither). All you need is 300 grams of 1-week old starter and a gently oiled 12-inch pizza pan. Follow the directions on TBB for lining and pre-baking your crust. The taste is wonderful, and it is commercial-yeast-free!

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Hello Hector! First up, I'd like to say I'm a fan of all your work!

Yes, I've decided to follow the instructions for the first week, I figure that this being my first attempt at a starter, it's better not to "lean on my own understanding" as the other bible would put it :p

I've tried where possible to get ideal temperatures with air-conditioning, it's worked for other pre-ferments, though leaving the air-conditioning on for a whole day isn't very economical, so when I'm not at home I leave the jar on the floor in the coolest part of the house. The starter has been very forgiving so far, it didn't deflate or anything right up to the 48 hour mark, despite all that activity.

I suppose I've gotta eyeball it eventually, and thanks for the tip about feeding at the peak of activity, I will bear that in mind ~next~ week, haha, assuming everything goes fine!

Then again, everything I have tried from both the Cake and Bread bibles so far have turned out just as Rose writes, so I shall have faith that this will work against the odds, just like the first bread I turned out with the BB.

Thank you Rose, for these excellent recipes- I now have the opportunity to experience amazing bread (and quickbreads!) at home, far away from the West on the culinary map. I swear I've never been happier with bread and butter!

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thank you for posting this, it has been discussed in length but it is worth discussing again.

I've developed my starter at a 75 to 85 oF kitchen, in Hawaii. And like how you experience, the process looks different than described.

A warmer environment accelerates the process. I would recommend in this warm case, to follow the instructions for the first week, then do your feeding at shorter time intervals.

Ideally, you want to feed when the starter is at its peak activity (the most bubbles, higher, before it deflates). Seems like your starter is now on its peak, so actually, feeding it sooner as you say will be ok, but just in case, I like to let the starter "over activate" during the first week, to get the most yeast growth possible.

I wasn't getting results similar to yours, I've read somewhere that when the ideal temperatures are not possible, the starter will behave differently. I was getting a lot of smell and bubble activity. After 4 weeks, I've kept feeding daily, a few times I will forget and let 2 days pass by which turned my started "really dirty and stinku looking." I am glad I did not give up since the first time I made bread it proved the starter was alive!

It is really easier than what we think, and definitely don't get discouraged if things don't look as expected. Having your own birth starter becomes beloved.

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Heya everyone,

I've just 'birthed' my first ever sourdough starter, I made it with organic whole-meal flour and stuck it in an IKEA jar.

At Rose's instruction, I put it in a cool place, and here in Singapore, that's really only possible in air-conditioning. My starter has been sitting at 18 degrees C, about 65 F for about 36 hours. I am slightly worried because the BB says to let it sit for 48 hours before the first feeding, but it is already giving off a faint sour scent, has little air pockets at the side, a few small holes (bubbles?) at the top, and is very slightly expanded. Is this normal? And should I jump the gun and feed it 12 hours early?

Thanks and love,
Joel

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Rose - thanks for clarifying. That is definitely much easier. I was starting to refresh the starter for all doughs 1 -2 days ahead which adds alot of time. Louise
PS - I just took your brioche dairy challah out of the oven and it hard not to break right into it - do I really have to wait 2 hours??? I will report back later when we have tasted it. It is very pretty.

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Wow - that means I have been doing it wrong. Let me make sure I understand. If I add starter to challah (either the one in the BB or the one on this wesbite) or any recipe that calls for yeast, I do not feed it? So, if the starter has been in my refrigerator for a week or less, I just use it straight from my refrigerator without any feeding/ refreshing? Do I need to let it sit out for an hour? Well -I like to learn one thing new everyday! thanks, Louise

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makes sense, the first is less active, than the second.

stiff or liquid, for basic sourdough breads without instant dry yeast, use a starter at its peak activity, which is when it has doubled in volume.

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Well, Louise, perhaps I need instruction also. In nearly all of my recent breads I've been pulling out a chunk of my starter (which is somewhere between stiff and liquid) kneading in some flour, and then tearing it in to the kneading dough, before adding the salt. I've had wonderful results doing it that way, and unless told otherwise, don't see any reason not to continue that way. The starter I'm using usually has not been refreshed for a number of days (up to 5 or 6 days).

Beth

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Hector - sorry - now I see it was your reply - thanks! Louise

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Rose - thanks so much. Just to make sure I understand, if you convert a liquid starter to a stiff starter, you should not use for a week.

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Louise, if you want to go by heart, add sufficient flour to your 1-week old refrigerated liquid starter to make it stiff like a kneadable dough. Leave it at room temperature until it doubles in volume. Then feed at 2-2-1 ratio by weight and store refrigerated for 1 week.

2(stiff starter)-2(flour)-1(water). I usually use 50 gr of stiff starter, 50 of flour and 25 of water for my storage starter.

The stiffer liquid starter that has doubled at room temperature after adding flour, can be used to make bread! It is when it doubles in volume that you know for sure that it is at its peak activity.

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What are the steps if you have a liquid starter that has been in the refrigerator for a week and you want to use it for dough - as a stiff starter? Do you make it a stiff starter and then feed it per your instructions on the bottom of page 438? If so, how long do you wait between making it a stiff starter and then feeding it? thanks, Louise

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I am making the brioche - dairy challah. Should I add any starter? if so, how much and do I need to make any adjustments due to using the starter (salt etc??) thanks, Louise

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matthew, yeast adores seeds so it could be synergistic flavor happening here!

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Ron,
I'd stick with it for another week. You might go ahead an convert it to a stiff starter and see if it doubles (since you already reached the doubling point a day early). I made mine in the winter last year, and it took longer because my house was cool (~65). I think 70-75 is ideal, but it should still work if it is slightly cooler.

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Hi,
I need some advice on my sourdough starter.
I followed the method which starts on page 432 of The Bread Bible and after the day 3 feeding, my starter increased in volume by about four (4) times to about 4 cups before deflating.
I continued with the day 4 feeding, but there was only marginal volume increase. It didn't increase in volume to 3 or 4 cups at this point.
I have continued throwing out half and feeding with 2 ounces each of flour and water each day, but still only see marginal volume increase with bubbling on the surface.
Is this starter active?
At this point, it isn't increasing in volume enough for me to believe it could raise bread dough.
Should it double in volume after each feeding? How long should it take to double?
What temperature should I try to keep it at after feeding?
Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Ron Stijepic
Thunder Bay, ON Canada

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Enjoying a wholesome slice of the sourdough wheat bread with seeds. Out of curiosity, why does this bread taste less sour than the others? It is that the seeds dominate the flavor more? That doesn't seem to be the whole story. Delicious nonetheless.

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I've had the same idea, but let me tell you that amount of whole wheat flour in the little amount of starter you use, will be insignificant compared to the amount of flour you add when making bread. So, think of it as a waste of time and thinking.

Secondly, I have the suspision that using whole wheat to feed/keep your starter may slow down the starter activity, and perhaps contaminate it too. All the extra wheat brand may just contribute to decomposition in the starter during storage.

By all means, try keeping 2 starters, one with 100% whole wheat, and let us know how this behaves and tastes!

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I have an active starter that is working great. I followed the instructions in the Bread Bible to get it going. I used wheat flour, which I freshly milled, in the beginning and have been feeding it with bread flour. My question is, would there be any reason, or benefit, to feeding the starter on occasion with wheat flour? Or would this be a bad idea? I like the flavor the wheat gave. Maybe it is best just to use wheat flour in the dough, which has been working well. Any thoughts?

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got the baker at a discount store, so I doubt you will find it! It is made by BIC which I have no idea who they are but I have a few of their pieces. I think they marketed products for Crate and Barrel and Macys, but now discontinued! Thank you for the kind words.

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...or bread and you can be good friends...which seem sto be you case! both of you get along well and work well together.
hector, the baker, indeed, is beautiful. Where did you get it? (another item for my wish list!!!)

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Thank you Silvia! Let me tell you a little bit how this bread was invented...
It started as the Basic Sourdough Bread which I had planned to cut down to 50% of water on the last expansion. I didn’t have my scale with me, so I added more water than planned. I must have added about 75% of water because the 4-strand braid did not hold its shape, thus I placed the braid on this yellow rectangular baker (which BTW, Rose loved this baker so much!). The ‘crack’s you see on the top crust are the braids!
The second thing is that I started too late that day that the bread was still proofing when I decided to go out to dinner, so I had to retard the final proof. After 1 hour of room temperature proof, I placed the bread in the refrigerator before I went out to dinner. When I came back, I took it out of the refrigerator, the bread rose about 25% and it was 35 degrees. I was planning to bake this on my sleep, but instead I decided to use the ‘cooler method.’ I placed the bread in a cooler (without any ice), and left the cooler outdoors where is about 65 degrees at night. When I woke up, I opened the cooler and the bread rose to the top of the rectangular baker, which is about a 2x rise. The bread was at about 65 degrees, perfect! This is when I baked it and had it just in time for breakfast (and indeed, for lunch and dinner too, since the bread was delicious!).
Bread is a way of your life, you can choose to be a bread slave, or you can choose to produce a bread that fits your lifestyle!

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looks beautiful and delicious to me, Hector!

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Basic Sourdough Bread done with 25% less flour and braided with 4 strands. It was too wet to hold its shape, so I proof it on a rectangular baker. I used bleached AP flour as you can see the dome is flat!

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/BasicSourdoughBread25%25LessWater.htm

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Tina, CONGRATULATIONS! that is a menu full of cake bible and pie and pastry bible! Did I read you also baked bread?

Bake your life away!

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That's a good idea. I'll remember that for next time. The pie turned out good any way. I think when I baked the filling the rest of the crust baked through. If it didn't I never found out because my slice was fine and the people around me who ate it didn't express any problems. The crut was very buttery, crispy, and flaky. At least I think it was flaky. It was a little hard to detect it since it was so crispy, and I loved the tartness of it. It was like a lemon meringe pie, but better. I don't think I really liked lemon meringe. This pie I liked becaus the meringe was folded into the lemon curd which lightened it, so you didn't have that tart hevy curd sitting on your tongue. Tonight we had some family friends come over for dinner and I had planned on making for dessert a almond biscuit roulade with raspberry jam cream. The night before I'm making the biscuit roulade and I make two mistakes. Fist when I grind my toasted almonds in the food processor I grind them too long and turn them into almond butter. Luckly I had still had some toasted almonds left, so I try again and this time I grind them with the three tablespoons of cake flour it called for. I finnish up the batter with a little fear that I didn't use enough almonds, and I put it in the oven. I put it on the lowest rack even though I knew it said use the lower third of the oven. I was hurring my self to complete it and didn't want to take the time to move the rack. I also though that mabe it would rise higher and set faster if I put it on the bottom. I took it out after seven minutes and fliped it out on to a dish towel to find that part of the bottom had burned. While I desperately scraped of the burnt part the cake cooled down too much to safely roll up with out cracking. I lost it after that. I felt like a complete failer and that I couldn't do anything right. The next day I got my composer back and decided to make individual trifles. I layered the biscuit with the raspberry jam cream, blackberry jam, blueberry sauce, toasted, slivered almonds, and fresh blueberries and raspberries. They look great each in a wine or clear glass with a sprig of mint on top for garnish. Everyone loved it. It tasted wonderful. I was shocked! How did my screw up turn out to be such a sucess! I was a little unsure on my decision to spread blackberry jam on top of the biscuit layer, but it turned out to be the perfect addition. The tart jam with the cool cream, spongey cake, and crunchy almonds was a match made in heaven! That helped to mend my broken ego a little. If I've learned one thing it's don't expect everything to turn out perfect the first time, and if something goes wrong don't freak out. There is always something you can do to fix it. Thanks a lot Hector and Matthew for taking the time to read about my troubles and give me advice. It means a lot! It helps to keep me going when I just want to give up.

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Tiina,
If you want to try to bake the crust longer, you can cover the browned parts with foil and leave the undone parts exposed. I think that will work faster than parchment and rice.

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Tina, your starter is just right. My sourdough starter (TBB) does not impart any 'sourdough taste’ neither. Everyone I tell this is a sourdough bread can’t taste it; instead they say: nice flavor, extra tasty, what is it? what flavor did you use on your bread!

I am extremely satisfied with this because in my opinion sourdough bread has been commercialized so much that people expect a sour taste; there are many sour sourdough breads out there that actually are just sour and not tasty. The starter WE have has a more complex flavor than just sour.

Our starters will become more sour with time, but I doubt as strong as commercial sourdough. Which is great! If you prefer, you can achieve now a more sour taste by saving all your discarded starter in the freezer, and adding it (thawed) to your last flour addition.

Next time you rolled irregularly your pie crust, just over bake it, burn that sucker! My ‘burned’ pie crust is still talked about, how delicious it was.

Your comments just make me want go right to my oven! I love cooking and baking, but it is baking that gets more of my attention because I love doing science and chemistry (and of course use my scale to weight everything).

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Thanks for the tips and advice Hector! No I'm not a baker. I want to have a career in the culinary field. I'm not sure if I like cooking or baking more, so I'm trying both areas. I think I really like baking dispite how I struggle through some of the recipes. I'm glad to hear that my genoise wasn't too short. It seemed that way compared to a picture I saw once on this site. I baked a loaf of bread using just my sourdough today and it came out nice! It really didn't have much of a sourdough flavor. I suspect it might be because my sourdough starter itn't very old so hasn't really developed much of a flavor. Right? Well right now I just finished baking my pie crust. I pretty concerned because some areas of the crust were thicker than others, so when I had fininsed prebaking it some areas of the crust were still doughy while others were brown and cooked! I'm afraid that when I bake the filling that those areas will not bake and the people who eat my pie will bite into doughy crust! I don't know what to do! If I bake it longer the already done crust will burn or over brown! What I'm going to try and do is turn off the oven and place the crust in it with parchment paper and rice on top to see if taht will slowy bake the under done parts without over baking the rest. I hope it works and next time I make dough I'm going to be more careful when I roll it out to keep this from happening again.

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WOW Tina, seems like you got sourdough bread, cake, and pie crust going! U R a baker!

1.5" genoise layer is fine. Actually it is usually 1" after trimmings if baked in a 1.5" pan. The KitchenAid wisk is a good way to fold genoise for very small jobs. Your creative flavors are amazing!

By all means, make a new sourdough starter w/o commercial yeast!

There are many methods on how to keep sourdough starter. The method Matthew and I follows is TBB method on stiff starter. Also, there are many methods on how to make bread using sourdough starter.

At one point when you refer that you could make bread with just the starter, I think you are correct, it just depends at what point one calls your mix 'starter' and at what point 'bread dough'

TBB calls starter the little 150 grams you keep inside the refrigerator and feed once a week. To make bread dough, you take a little of it and start expanding repeatedly (adding more flour and water in 2 or 3 repeated intervals). On your last expansion you add the salt (salt inhibits yeast activity, so it is preferred to add it last).

I think you are doing ok. Some more tips: the storage starter (the one you keep refrigerated and reed once a week), normally it should not rise more than double in volume. If it is over rising, then your refrigerator is not cold enough, you need to feed it sooner than once a week, or you need to use more flour/water during the feeding. Think that the starter is a living thing that eats flour and needs warmth; it will still feed in the cold refrigerator but slower which is great so you don't have to feed it daily! A starter left at room temperature will need to be fed as often as every 8 hours!

Another tip, when you are making the bread dough. Let the dough rise only twice in volume or slightly less; this is for each step of bread dough making (until the next expansion, next flour addition, etc), more volume would mean excessive, too sour, it would kill the yeast, or it will affect negatively the structure of the bread (the gluten gets consumed, blah, blah, blah).

Your mind and your action is full of activity, I am sure you will be very happy to get The Bread Bible, The Cake Bible, and The Pie and Pastry Bible. These are not just ' cookbooks;' instead, these are extensive research papers full of answers!

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No my starter was left out at room teperature. Although i did place it on the counter next to my refrigerator. Could that have made a difference? I did use the starter by making half a recipe of sourdough french bread from a bread book I owned. It was strange because it called for the starter and yeast. From reading other blogs it sounds like I should be able to make bread using just the starter. Right? When I made it I forgot I was only making half the recipe, so I ended up putting in the full amount of salt and honey called for! I realized this after I had mixed it in. In an atempt to "save" it I added in a bunch of honey(close to a 1/4 cup or less.) I let it rise over night in the fridge. Then I gently Kneaded it a few times, shaped it into six rolls, and let them rise a second time until doubled in size. I baked it following the technique for sourdough (baking it at a high temp. and misting/brushing it with cold water after 5 minutes. Bake for another 5 min. and mist again. Then lower the temp. and continue baking till done.) The rolls turned out decent. Their crust wasn't as hard as hard as french bread. (I had done the technique before and had goten a harder crust.) The flavor was very interesting though. It was salty but not overly salty. It was just on the edge. It also had a somewhat complex sweetly sour taste. It think it came from the honey because the taste reminded me of wildflower honey. My parents had no compliants. My mom tried some and said it tasted like sourdough, and my dad liked them. In fact he ate most of them! I would like to make a new starter not using commercial yeast. Till I can I may keep this one around a little longer and see what happens. I also made my cake. I didn't read this in time, so i went ahead and used my Kitchen aid wisk. My cake measured about 1 1/2 inches before I trimmed it. I trimmed off the thinest layer possible so it wouldn't be too short. I also made the mistake of putting the suryp on before splitting it in half. I iced the outside with a Mousseline Buttercream (Since I didn't have any liqueurs nor did I know a place where I could find any, I used a few teaspoons of vanilla and almond extract and cinnamon.) I piped a decorative boarder around the top edge and placed a fresh cherry topping on top. I also stuck sliced toasted almonds on the sides. It tasted great. Everyone at my church liked it too. The only other mistake I made was that I made the fresh cherry toping at the last second and didn't have time for it to cool. It melted some of the butter cream on the top, so when we got to the church it wasn't as pretty as it had been when I first put the cherries on top. Oh well, I'm learning. I'm making the crust for the lemmon pucker pie tonight for this Wednesday's church cook out. I'm making it because I made some lemon curd with the egg yolks left over from my butter cream. You know what they say "waste not want not."

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Tiina, regarding your starter, when it rose after 24 hours and it became less stiff, was it on the refrigerator? If it was at room temperature, it is normal to double, in as little as 8 hours! It sounds to me that you can use it to bake, even it it rose too much, just make your bread. Your starter is ACTIVE by all counts.

I recommend you make your starter again, and without commercial yeast. Although sourdough is also yeast, and yeast is yeast, we sourdough puritan people prefer to keep our starter 'commercial' yeast free! There is a common practice (specially in commercial bakeries), to add commercial yeast to sourdough bread. I would add the yeast when you make the bread dough, but keep your starter w/o it.

Regarding Genoise. Use a rubber spatula or a less angled skimmer. These are much better than using the wrong size balloon whisk! You just need to take my word for this!

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Well I fed my starter one more time and after 24 hours it looked as though it had deflated. This worried me because I was able to find a copy of the bread bible and read the section on starting a sourdough starter -- alas, I had no money, so I couln't buy the book. It doesn't look like I'll be able to buy it for quite some time.-- and in the book it mentioned it should be doubleing in size after feedings. I dicided to feed it one last time and when I did I tried changing it into a stiff starter. In the morning it had rose! I'm not sure if it is a stiff starter now though because it seems to be a little on the liquid side. Since it rose before a total of 24 hours is it now ready to bake with? I'm not sure what day it would be on since I didn't follow the book's way. I also added commercial yeast in the beginning (hay! I was just doing it the way my book said to do it) which must change the way it acts. I guess I'll feed it tonight and try baking with it tomorrow and see what happens. Anyone have any advice they could give me? It would be much appreciated! I'm also going to atempt my first genoise tonight! Gulp! I don't have a huge ballon wisk or rubber spatula, so I'm just going to try to do the best with what I have. I might try a fold it with the wisk that comes with my kitchen aid since it's the biggest one I have. What can I say? I'm an amerture with a mideocre kicthen and big dreams.

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Hi Cindy, the metal one will do. Straighten the handle it a little so it is less angled

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This is the photo of my slotted skimmers.I have used the metal one. May be the hloes are too small, I find it not folding the batter well.The black plastic one has slightly larger holes,just bought it I have not tried it out.
Cindy

slotted skimmer

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Tina,
I'll take a stab at your questions, but I'm sure you'll get some more input as there are a lot of sourdough bakers here.

"stay at a temperature between 80 and 90 degrees"

That sounds high to me--you risk developing off flavors at too high of temperatures.

"so is it dead or did I save it in time?"

I think the only way to know is to try to nurse it back by feeding it and see if it is still active. Personally, I would probably start fresh, but it might be worth a couple of feeding cycles to see.

"Add to this one cup of all-purpose flour and one cup of lukewarm water"

This sounds like a lot of starter to keep. I keep 150 grams, which I think is around 1/2 cup. Unless you are baking a lot of bread, you might consider reducing the amount (and waste).

I keep a stiff starter because I find it easier to use and maintain. Yours is a liquid starter. If you want to convert it, use 1/2 as much water.

"Let stand over night until fermented"

This seems like an excessive amount of time if you are just feeding. I usually do 1/2 to 1 hour for feedings. If you are baking, then you will need more time.

"I use unbleached all-purpose flour is that o.k.?"

Bread flour is best because it stands up better to the acids in the starter. The same is true for making the actual bread.

"Could I find it at any book store?"

Yes--look on Amazon too. It contains all the information you need to be successful.

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I have tried starting a sourdough starter once and every time I baked with it my bread ended up with a sourt of rancid taste to it, so I threw it out. I stared a new one using a recipe from the joy of cooking book I have, and I placed it in the oven to stay at a temperature between 80 and 90 degrees. I forgot it was in there and turned the oven on. I pulled it out and have scrapped off the dried out bits. It is full of bubbles and emits a nice sour order, so is it dead or did I save it in time? Also I noticed that everyone else who has posted a question has a more detailed plan of how to take care of your starter. All my book says to do is at least once a week discard all but one cup of the starter. Add to this one cup of all-pourpose flour and one cup of lukewarm water. Let stand over night until fermented and bubbling, then use or refrigerate. I use unbleached all-pourpose flour is that o.k.? Your book sounds very helpful and I would love to buy it. Could I find it at any book store? If anyone else knows the answer please feel free to post your answer. I'm desparate. I really want to be able to produce good sourdough bread. I think I am going to try and feed the starter and see what happens. Since if I do nothing it will surely die.(If I haven't killed it already) Thanx.

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Matthew, Hector and Theresa,
Thank you so much for your encouragement .It feel so good that you are never alone in this baking world although we are so scattered and far apart physically.Thanks to this blog that we can be draw together . Cheers!!!

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That's what I thought everyone meant - thank you.

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Davia, for stiff starter:

Keep refrigerated the starter you feed.

Keep frozen the starter you DONT feed. The one you discard each time you feed your refrigerated stiff starter.

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Hector, I'll assume you meant "why would you want to feed your "old" starter".

Matthew, thank you, that's what I thought, but just wanted to be clear. I'd been refrigerating both, but feeding only the good starter.

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Cindy, your mango rose looks luscious! Matthew, Rose had a brilliant idea and you have carried it forward to new heights! You are creating a mango rose craze! :)

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Davia--you should freeze the old starter to halt its activity and refrigerate the good starter.

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Cindy, beautiful mango rose! very shiny gorgeous mango slices.

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Davia, freeze only the 1 week old starter (the "old starter), the part you would normally discard during your weekly feedings.

Why would you want to feed your "regular starter?"

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Rose, after reading it again, I realize my followup question wasn't clear. By "old starter", I'm talking about the part you might otherwise discard when feeding the "good" starter. I used old starter in one of the recipes (basic sourdough?) and it was fabulous, so I like to keep it. So, again, is it only the "old starter" that you freeze? Or both the old starter and the "good" starter? And I assume you don't feed the "old starter"?

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Rose, sorry I'm not clear on your answer. Do you only freeze the "old starter" or also freeze the "regular" starter -- the one you feed weekly?

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Cindy--good job on the cake and photo posting!

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Here I am trying to post a photo for the first time.Thank you again Methew for your instruction to post photo. I say "again" because the photo of this cake I am posting is also made with your help (the mango rose version).Thank you so much!
Cindy

mango rose cake

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Rose, since the first time I made your basic sourdough, I've been saving the "old starter" in a separate jar from the starter I've just fed. I've been keeping it in the fridge. Should I freeze it instead.

Also, should I always feed the starter at least once a week, or can I go longer between feedings?

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Hello Chaconey, Rose's stiff starter is as good as it gets. My buddy is called Keiko, and she is on the most noticeable spot in my refrigerator, so I can say hello to her daily.

I've just posted about my airport ordeal while traveling with bread dough. http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2007/07/food_processor_ricotta_bliss_b.html#comment-58931

Talking about oils used in bread, I've just had for lunch the most exquisite salad dressing made with hazelnut oil. I can't wait to try it on bread!

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The last two paragraphs got clipped a bit:

I upload my photos to a free account at I created at www.flickr.com.

Right click your photo, select properties, and you will see the permanent link to your photo (it should have the word static in the URL). Use that URL as the link to your picture.

Finally, I recommend that you use the preview button to make sure your link works before you post.

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I'm reposting the instructions as a picture below. This will explain how to post a link to your photos, but since it is a photo itself, you won't be able to copy and paste the text.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

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Hello Hector,

I really get a moist spongy crumb when I bake my breads and I'm not using a Dutch oven. It's to bad that your experiencing this problem.

I also tend to think it's the organic vegetable shortening that I'm using by Spectrum's. After I started baking with the shortening I noticed the silky creamy crumb I was getting. So I kept on using it. Another good substitute would be organic coconut oil. I prefer the organic vegetable oil.

Were really enjoying Our Stiff Sourdough Bread it's tender, moist and makes delicious sandwiches.

Another thing that I like about the stiff sourdough is how you can make the starter and set it in the fridge and bake with it later in the week. meanwhile it is developing it's flavor in the fridge. Now with a liquid starter I would have to feed it at least once.

I'm using my stiff starter like a thick Motherdough starter. I make enough to last through the week. And I weigh each portion 1/4 cup (50 grams) and make patties which I wrap in cellophane and place in a one quart jar.

When I'm baking two loaves I have two choices. You can feed the starter once to expand the starter with 2/3 cup bread flour (100 grams) and 1 TBSP water + 2 tsp water (25 grams)this way I can bake two loaves of bread. Then I divide the starter into two portions or I can simply use two patties and directly mix it into my dough for two loves of bread.

For one loaf of bread I would just use 1/4 cup (50 grams)or one patty, Stiff starter and mix it into the dough after I autolyse the dough.

My starter is so vigorous I really don't need to feed it once or twice. So I can save time if I choose not to expand the dough by directly adding it to the dough. Which I could not do with my liquid starter.

I named my starter (Buddy) for I'm starting to see that he's my best buddy when it comes to baking with him, for he works right along side of me. Giving my dough the elasticity that I need to produce beautiful high rising loaves of bread. He's such treasure.

How do you post pictures of your breads on the this site?

Sincerely A True Stiff Sourdough Convert, Chaconey

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Chaconey, THANK YOU for sharing your stiff starter experience. And you just reminded me that the business fold turns makes a day/night difference on the rustic bread structure! I bake 1 loaf of Basic Sourdough Bread each week, using the Dutch Oven. I often avoid doing the business letter turns to achieve a more moist and spongy crumb, which is great for grilled paninis, but not so great to eat as fresh bread.

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Hello Rose,

I just read through your book. I'm and avid sourdough baker. I just had to let you know I love your book. Wow! It's great....

Your Book Helped Me Converted To A Stiff Sourdough Starter From A Liquid Sourdough Starter.

I really had second thoughts about doing this, but I just had to see if there was a big difference between these two starters.

Once I developed the the stiff sourdough starter on the second feeding it doubled within 4 hours. So I proceeded with your instructions.

1. Autolysed the flour and water for 20 minutes.
2. Then I added the starter.

I really liked adding the stiff starter to the autolysed dough instead of using a messy liquid starter. You simply throw in chunks of stiff starter into the dough, and no messy cup and spatula to clean up. Loved it!

3. Then I let the dough rise.

4. Business Letters Turns---I did two sets

I have been doing the Business Letters Turns in my baking for quite a while and what a big difference it had made in baking my breads.

5. I shaped my loaves and let them rise. Wow! Did I get a good rise. The loaves had really risen. With a liquid starter I could never let them rise to high for fear of collapsing the dough. with the stiff starter I let them fully rise until they were light and springy and you could see tiny air bubbles underneath the skin of the rising dough. they were absolutely beautiful.

6. I slashed the loaves and lightly misted them, preheated the oven, place the ice cubes in the pan sitting on the oven floor and placed two bread pans on top of a (large cast iron griddle), and proceeded to bake.

After 10 minutes of baking I checked the loaves through the oven window and the loaves had risen higher than my liquid sourdough loaves. I used two 9" loaf pans and the loaves had risen about 2" above the bread pans. I really got a good oven spring.

The loaves had browned beautifully. Once they cooled down I decided to measured the loaves and they measured 5" in height. I was amazed.

Now for the crumb, the bread was light and airy with holes laced through each piece of bread.

Flavor---Wow! What a big difference. I would say the (stiff starter) will give you that real rustic taste and chewy texture that you want in a Hearth bread. The flavor is outstanding.

Liquid Sourdough---the flavor is very mild and bland.

Now I'm a convert from a liquid sourdough to a stiff sourdough. You can't beat it.

TIP---In baking sourdoughs breads like Boules and French loaves I really love the crispy crust. At times I simply don't have the time to full with them. So I bought some really nice 9" heavy gauge bread pans, they weigh (1 1/4 lbs.) each by Cuisinart Chef's Classic. When I first baked with these heavy gauge bread pans the crust came out crispy just like a Hearth bread or French breads. I highly recommend these bread pans for a good crispy crust.

Hamburger Buns---Rose, I also made your hamburger buns , with the (stiff starter) and they rose a good 2" in height. Wow! They looked beautiful and while I was eating them I kept waiting for that fake air bread flavor to appear. I'll be baking these buns weekly.

The Stiff Sourdough Starter has a lot more elasticity and makes a forgiving dough which make sourdough baking a lot easier, it's an outstanding starter. I would highly recommend it over a liquid sourdough starter to those who are are just venturing fourth into the field of sourdough baking.

Recipe Ingredients---I used your Hearth Bread recipe. And substituted 1 TBSP Spectrum's Organic Vegetable Shortening for the oil, it's such a rich shortening that you only need 1 TBSP. I fine that it produced a better crumb and texture making the dough real silky, which also helps in preserving the bread longer.

Seeds---I substituted ground organic Flax seeds, and finely ground unsweetened coconut granules, and a Chia jell. This combination will really add flavor to a loaf of bread. These ingredients are highly nutritious, especially if you're looking to fortify your breads with added minerals that help in digesting breads plus the omega oils found in flax seeds and in the Chia jell that will aid in balancing your hormones.

Super Fats---The ingredients I mentioned above are super fats, which your body craves on a daily basis. What a delicious way to a add them to your diet by simply eating a piece of good home made bread. These super fats will enhance the flavor of your breads, improve the crumb, and will aid you in producing light airy loaves of bread.

Love your book, Rose!

Sincerely, a Stiff Dough Convert

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Thanks Rose. I have a starter too, so perhaps I shouldn't bother. I was just curious to try the recipe to see what it is like and how it differs from the regular one.

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Rose,
Have you tried both the French Sourdough Starter and the Pain de Campagne Starter from KA for your low risk sourdough? Are they interchangeable? The French version contains beef and I don't want to use it.

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hi rose,
do you have a recipe for sourdough pancakes? i end up throwing out more sourdough than i ever use and would love to make pancakes but i can't seem to find a recipe that i like.

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Hector, thank you so much for the detailed explanation (and the beautiful pictures).

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I think the Escali Primo are lovelly! and very popular now. I have the Soehnle Futura (4 lb version) which is very similar and has the same degree of freedom (resolution of 1 gram).

The scale is the gadget in my kitchen I use most!!!

Hey, if you are using Rose's Bibles, try weighting by grams, much easier!

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Davia, here pics of the Dutch Oven method

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/BasicSourdoughBreadDO.html

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Hi Davia, glad I can help. I read Bread Bible almost everyday, and by the time I finish reading it I have to read it again. It is extensive and complete in my opinion! There are several chapters indicating the basics of bread.

The summary I made on the basics of bread baking is ONE: bread should be baked in a very hot oven, hotter than most home ovens can reach. When the dough touches an inmmenselly hot surface, it will give you the best spring (the bottom crust sets, for the dough can only rise up making great holes). TWO: bread needs vapor or steam to develop a good crust (not just a hot water bath, but steam you can see!) If you peak at many commercial bakeries you can see that their bread ovens are huge convection machines with steaming glass doors!!!

To replicate this at home, you bake your bread at manageable and safe temperatures for longer time and you try to place your bread on the hotest surface you can have (a stone or cast iron). The baking temperature I have noted are 450oF for low-sugar breads (like the Basic Sourdough Bread, plain white, etc), or 400oF for high-sugar breads (with cranberries, briche, honey breads, raisin bread, etc).

I think there is an inmense difference between a hot water bath and the ice cube method. The second generates more steam!

Rose's trick to compensate for the oven temperature drop when you put the ice cubes or when you open you oven door to place the bread is to pre-heat your oven at 25 to 50 degrees higher. This has worked well for me. Monitor your oven temperature with an accurate themometer, you will notice if you preheated with 475oF, after you place your bread and ice cubes, it will drop to about 425oF. After a few minutes the temperature will come back up, and this is when you turn the heat down to the baking temperature (450 or 400).

I have the bottom of my oven covered with quarry tiles. I placed these right on the cover plate that is above the heating element. At the top rack of my oven, I have another set of quarry tiles, too. Leave a couple of inches around, for the air to circulate. These tiles help INMENSELLY to keep the heat in my oven, even when I open/close the doors!!! Tiles absorbe and keep heat very very well. Even after hours done baking, my tiles are still too hot to touch.

On the bottom rack of my oven, I have a cast iron grill (pancake/grill double side rectangular grill). This is where I toss my ice cubes.

Right above the bottom rack, I have a rack where I place my bread. I have barelly enough space to fit it since the top rack is also occupied.

I started baking bread on a pizza stone. This stone is placed on the rack above the bottom rack. The stone is preheated with the oven. You dump your dough on it, and you toss ice cubes on the cast iron grill. About 4 to 8 ice cubes is perfect (enough to sizzle and melt away for 5 to 10 minutes, you don't want that many because after 10 minutes you end up with a pool of water, and it is only during the first 5 to 10 minutes when you develop the gelatinization -a shiny sticky surface like glue- of the crust that will burn into a nice crust at the end of baking).

The pizza stone works great!!! I think a La Cloche would too (don't have one). But after cracking so many stones, I am converted to cast iron Dutch ovens. Also it is less messy.

So, instead of a stone, you preheat a cast iron Dutch oven (DO). I don't like the enamel ones, because they stick, and worse than that they are hard to clean when burned so high. I like the Lodge Logic (preseasoned). I have 5 qt and also the 2 something qt (the one Rose has been writing about recently). You preheat the DO with the lid on together with your oven. I leave my bottom layer and top rack level of quarry tiles (this just helps bring your temperature back up). I also leave my cast iron grill on the bottom (it also helps bring temperature back up), although sometimes I am using it to make pancakes, so it is not always there.

I do the preheating with convection on. When ready, I open the DO lid (be careful, a lot of smoke will come, I suppose you can preheat it on the side of the oven, too). Drop your dough there, put the lid on. Keep baking with convection on for 5 to 10 minutes. The oven temperature should have come back up. Now remove the lid, turn the temperature down, and bake until done.

If you have a problem with the bottom crust too burned, then you need to take your bread out of the DO about 10 minutes towards the end, and keep it directly on the oven rack or on a sheet.

Good luck, bread baking is fun. I find it very organic, very live, each time is different, but each time is equally delicious!!!

My b-day cake is on its way!!!

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Hector, et al, I forgot to say I used my scale and I loved it! I got the inexpensive Escali Primo and it seems to work perfectly (including the "tare" feature).

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Hi again, Hector, and thanks. I will try the ice cube version next time, although I've read that other people think this cools off the oven too much!! I know I couldn't bake the bread for less time, because it was actually perfectly baked - about the 212 degrees Rose specifies in the recipe, but recipe or not, it was baked to perfection except for the slightly burned crust.

Are you saying you bake bread in the dutch oven with the lid on? I know I made the no-knead bread that way, but I hadn't considered doing it with Rose's recipe.

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Hi Davia, I think your oven works very similar to my gas version. My first breads were burned, too. Try baking for less time! Or try calibrating your oven with a thermometer. I think the oven is either too hot or the baking time is too long.

I don't think hot water works. You need to toss ice cubes on a preheated cookie sheet or cast iron pan. The idea is to sizzle those ice cubes so great vapor comes off. It is so much vapor that my oven glass door fogs. If you put water or hot water, it is more like a water bath (very slow gradual humudity).

Good luck =) I would say try baking on the "now famous" Dutch oven with a lid, that way you don't have to fuzzle with the ice cubes!!!

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Hector, I also have a KA Architect Series oven, but it's an electric wall oven with convection being an option. I just wondered if using convection might be the source of the problem, but it sounds like that probably isn't it. I did use steam, but the pan I put the hot water in wasn't cast iron, so maybe it didn't work all that well.

Any other ideas are certainly welcome. Again, the bread was the best I've ever made, except for the crust browning issue!

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I have a non-commercial range and it has a convection oven that can be used also as a non-convection oven. It is a KitchenAid Architect Series Self Standing Gas Range. The fan on commercial convections ovens is a lot stronger, and there is where you have the issues with convection (over drying). I believe the Cadco countertop model which is popular among home afficionados has a strong fan, too. Rose uses a large microwave/convection oven for cake baking, countertop, for home use, Sharp brand (you can see it on many of her published pictures); Rose details that this type of oven has a non-strong convection fan and that primarilly it is great for cakes because of the rotating plate. I believe for breads, Rose uses her commercial Wolf range, convection turned off.

Whenever I have to bake more than one loaf, I use convection, so all the breads bake even. Whenever I am baking bread with convection I make sure there is adequate humidity (vapor), specially during the first minutes of baking. I do always provide high humidity on the first 5 minutes of baking, with ice cubes on a preheated cast iron grill pan or by using a preheated Dutch oven with lid covered.

In conclusion, I don't think you can just set a rule whenever to have convection oven or not. Rose recommends that if you have a convection oven, it will be great if you have those convection ovens where you can also turn off the fan (cook in non convection mode). This gives you great flexibility. If you are only making breads (no cakes), having a convection oven that can be used also as a non-convecion oven is great. If you have a convection oven that can't be used as non-convection then just provide steam.

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Hi all. Just wondering whether you bake your bread on convection or regular bake?

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Everyone, I was able to bake the bread last night (late) and it is great - taste and texture, the best I've ever made. The crust is crackly, the way I like it.

However, the crust got too dark, almost burned but in a bad way (meaning grey-black in parts rather rich brown). Should I turn down the temperature next time and bake it longer, or do you have another suggestion?

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Thanks Hector and Rose! I still hope I'll have time to get it all done today, but just in case....

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Hi Davia, I refrigerate my dough at any stage for up to 1 week, sometimes 2! But when you bake, the dough must be at room temp (final rise). Good luck!!! /H

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Sorry, forgot to post my name again!

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Rose, Hector, Mattie, assuming I can't follow the instructions (including the folds, rise, shape, rise and bake) for baking day (tomorrow being Mother's Day), is there a point at which it would be okay to refrigerate the dough and bake it later? So far, I've made the storage starter and the two "expansions" of the bread starter and they're all in the fridge. Thanks.

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It is me (I!). Be back later!

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Well, everyone, just letting you know I got a scale (yea!) and this is the "day before I want to bake", so I have my storage starter just about ready to go in the fridge, and the other bread starter is "on the rise". I'll keep you posted.

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Hi all. Nothing to report yet -- no time to bake this weekend (it's on next weekend's agenda!). But I wanted to report that I fed my starter on Saturday because it had been nearly a week and I knew I wouldn't bake for another week. Since I haven't received my scale yet (I have ordered one, should arrive later this week), I used the "scant 1/2 cup deflated starter, scant 1/2 cup bread flour and 1/4 cup bottled water" measures. It doubled so fast I couldn't believe it. I put it in the fridge (that's another story - our fridge is broken, so I'm using the wine chiller) and by evening it had oozed out the top of the jar!! Guess it's active (LOL).

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Here some pictures with the speedo method.

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/Basic%20Sourdough%20Bread.JPG

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/Basic%20Sourdough%20Bread_2.JPG

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Great, confirmed by authority. 1 layer of freeze tight or 2 layers of stretch tight does the job.

Sorry for the confusion. On my shortcut for Basic Sourdough Bread when I say "do this three times" you do need to let the dough rest in between until it has risen. However, I find that you don't need to wait until it has risen to double. Depending on my erratic schedule, I am flexible, often I just wait until it has risen only slightly, you can tell when the dough develops a matte and smooth surface or when it has become more rounded in shape (like my face after a clay mask treatment). On my final rise and shaping, I do wait until this live creature rises to 2 or 3 x volume. My final rise is no knead!!!, I don't do the 2 punch downs on my final rise anymore. Hope this makes sense.

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Everytime I make Basic Sourdough Bread, I feel that a new life is born, too!!! It is a miracle of life that only flour and water is all it takes to make this dough grow!

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Rose has detailed advise regarding true airtigh plastic wrap. This picture is of Basic Sourdough Bread after the second expansion, done in the mixer bowl covered with 2 layers of "regular plastic wrap" (Kirkland brand from Costco, Food Plastic Wrap roll of 3000 sq ft). I placed some rocks on top of the wrap to also show that the starter has such strong force that it popped up the wrap tightly. I believe this plastic wrap is not really airtight, but by adding two layers, it may do????

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/Basic%20Sourdough%20Bread%20after%20second%20expansion.JPG

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You can make a "Duck" with Basic Sourdough Bread:

http://www.hectorwong.com

I zig-zag thin sliced a round loaf of Basic Sourdough Bread, then with sizzors I shaped feathers (a leaf cutter will work, too). Toasted them on a baking sheet and stuck them on this oval pate. There is a great pate recipe in the book Rose's Celebrations.

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I can't call my recipe "mine's." It is just what works for me together with Bread Bible.

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OK, Hector, you're on! I'm going to try your's and Rose's this weekend or next.

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After my bread party, one of my friends is hooked on the Basic Sourdough Bread. She is a novice, and here I dare her to try this "simplified" method.

Start with 1/4 cup of starter and add twice volume of dough (flour and water to make a soft dough that does not stick). Do this 3 times. At the last addition is when you add the salt. That's it!!!!!!!!!!! You don't dump anything, and you end up with enough dough to bake daily in your little bread oven for a few days.

IN DETAIL:

First time: start with 1/4 cup of starter, and 1/2 cup of dough. Now you have 3/4 cups. Rise.

Second time: with the 3/4 cups, add 1 1/2 cup of dough. Now you have 2 1/4 cups. Rise.

Third time: with the 2 1/4 cups, add 4 1/2 cups of dough. Add more water so it becomes very sticky. Add salt proportionate to the recipe (I think it is 6 grams of salt per 450 grams of total dough). "Do not rise." Now you have 6 3/4 cups of dough, that has not been risen. Keep this in the refrigerator for up to 1 week (even 2 weeks is ok). Bake as needed.

TO BAKE:

In the morning of the day you want to bake bread for dinner, grab some of the dough, put it in your little bread oven, have the bread oven knead it a little, turn off your bread oven and leave the dough there until dinner time. The dough should have risen at least 2 times. Now turn on the bake in the bread oven (I am assuming that you can just turn on the bake without kneading again, you don't want to knead again right before baking). It may work, too, if your bread oven has what they call "long rise" cycle. I think if in the morning you just put the dough in the bread oven, and leave it there all day turned off, it will still rise more than 2 times, then when you come home press the start button, it will knead but since the dough has risen so much, it won't loose that much volume, then it will bake a chewy and delicious dough (I have done bread risen only 1 times, still good).

If you want free form bread, then the morning of the day you want to bake bread for dinner, grab some of the dough, put it in a bowl or plastic container with olive oil, leave it there until dinner time. The dough should have risen at least 2 times. Now you dump it in your hot oven.

Questions?

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=0)

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Hector, that's great, and you know why that's great? Because that's exactly what I did!! Thanks everyone.

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Welcome back stuffed (n)rose!!! We missed you.

Davia, if you want to make it really-really simple try this:

Keep half cup of solid starter, discard the rest. Add half cup of flour. Add water gradually until you form a thick dough that does not stick.

Place in an slightly loose airtight container in the refrigerator for 1 week. It will rise half, double, or triple.

Can it be simpler than this?

I highly recommend you use bottled water or unchlorinated water (Britta pitcher is fine). If your city water has too much chlorine, it can kill or delay your starter. An easy way to get rid of most of the chlorine in your city water is to leave your water in a bowl at room temperature, slightly uncovered, overnight.

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Rose, great of you to post, especially since you just got back. Sorry you have a cold.

Here's where I get confused. The book says when you're feeding it every 3 days, and then once a week (this is once it is active, which mine clearly is) to "toss 1/2 the starter (about 1/2 cup)". First of all, does this mean 1/2 cup of deflated starter, or 1/2 cup of inflated starter (that, of course, is why a scale would be better!).

Then it says to mix in 1/2 cup flour and 1/4 cup water, which I did. However, elsewhere, it says that by volume it should be 1-1/2 times the amount of flour to water. Well, 1/2 cup to 1/4 cup by volume, is 2 times, not 1-1/2 times. So I'm confused.

Hope you're feeling better soon.

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Here it is, to keep a solid starter (you may want to double check with Bread Bible, I can't remember by heart):

For feeding your starter (storage starter): 50 grams of 1 week old refrigerated solid starter, 50 grams of flour, and 25 grams of water. I refrigerate this immediatelly for 1 week, then I repeat the process. Sometimes it will rise to double, to triple, to less than double, it does not matter as long as it has risen a little, it is alive in my opinion.

For making bread: 25 grams of 1 week old refrigerated solid starter, 50 grams of flour, and 25 grams of water. You can use storage starter younger than 1 week, the initial rises of your bread will just take longer time.

When feeding my starter, I find the mixing or kneading method not-important. You can mix by hand, with a spoon, on your mixer, etc.

Again, these instructions are for solid starter, not liquid. Bread Bible has indications for both.

Also, all the starter that you discarded, I freeze it. I use it to add extra flavor and shelf life to any of my breads, or I just add it at the final kneading of the Basic Sourdough Bread as a booster.

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Davia, page 436 of Bread Bible has the exact measurements by cups or weight to feed your starter. What is the confusing part?

Yes it does matter, I wouldn't add "too much or too little" feed (flour and water). The amount of feed and the time the starter has to feed on it before you feed again is important. The idea is to add just enough feed for the starter to consume with the available time before the next feeding (1 week). If you add too much feed, the starter won't get to it and when you dump half of it at the next feeding you will end up with too little active starter concentration. If you add too little feed, the starter will be starving and weak when it is time to re-feed. Put it this way: the starter is on its most active period when it has just finished feeding on the new feed, or when it has grown through all the feed.

The issue you have that it rose more than double in about 4 hours, I think it depends on the temperature of your kitchen or how active was your starter before feeding it. It happens to me, too, it is ok. Baking bread is a live thing, it doesn't always come out the same, but it is always delicious.

Good luck. /H

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Hi all. I have a question -- when you have an "active" starter and Rose suggests feeding it every 3 days for a couple of weeks, which measurements do you use (I find her manner of describing measurements very confusing). I used 1/2 cup of "deflated" starter, 1/2 cup of bread flour and 1/4 cup of water. Hector, I know you do your's by weight, so could you tell me the weight measurements you use?

Second question is, "does it matter?" I ask that because when I did this last night, it really rose way more than double in about 4 hours -- almost to 3 times.

Thanks.

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Hi Lin, that is a good book, and I think that Rose as part of Bread Bible bibliography. I feel that Rose wrote Bread Bible as a huge research paper, she has indeed referenced many books. It is a good summary.

Regarding leaving your just fed starter for half to one hour prior to refrigerating it, I skip this part. It is just easier than having to remember to put it in the fridge later.

Good luck, and I hope you try baking your loafs inside heated cast iron Dutch ovens. It gives you the best crust you can achieve and the best holes.

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Hi there - Thanks to everyone who has posted a comment - I appreciate the help and I think I understand now. I can feed the starter, wait at least one half to one hour, then refrigerate and feed at least once per week if not actively using it. Hector asked what book I'm baking with and it is Maggie Glezer's Artisan Baking Across America. I will be looking for the Bread Bible next as it sounds wonderful too. Thanks again!

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Hi Lin, what book are you using? Having an active starter at room temperature and feeding it several times a day sounds to be the equivalent of having the starter refrigerated and feeding once a week.

I agree with Matt, try Bread Bible page 436-437. I keep my starter as solid (instead of liquid), I keep it refrigerated and feed it only once a week. Whenever I make bread, I take some out and expand it 2 times at room temperature (must be what you mention to feeding it at room temp prior to using it). Sometimes I forget to feed my refrigerated starter, and 2 weeks go by without an issue. It is really flexible. Bread Bible even explains what to do with an starter that has gone old (too long since the last feeding).

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Lin:
I think once your starter is active you can go to once/week feedings while keeping it refrigerated. If you made your own starter from Rose's Bread Bible, there are instructions on how to maintain an active starter on p. 436 with a time table on p. 437. She recommends letting it sit at room temperature about 30 minutes after feeding before refrigerating it if planning to store for 1 week before feeding. I interpret this for maintaining the starter as well. Also, when feeding a starter that has been refrigerated, allow it to sit at room temperature for one hour before feeding it.

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Hello!
I am a new sourdough bread baker and am happy with the results so far - my dilemma is that now that I have an active starter that I feed twice daily, at what time can I refrigerate it properly? All the books/blogs I read say you can avoid the daily feedings by refrigerating the starter, but I haven't found at which you point refrigerate - how many hours after feeding it? I realize once it's refrigerated you need to do 2-3 feedings prior to using again in a bread recipe. Thank you for your help.

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Thanks for the review Hector! I started to write out a long and complicated measurements question and as I wrote it out and read the book at the same time, the answer became clear to me!! I didn't have time to bake this weekend, so I have the active starter in the fridge. I'm sure I'll get to it next weekend (by then I should have a scale).

Thanks again.

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I have an inexpensive Soehnle Futura digital scale. The one that Rose recommends but also complaints that it tends to auto shut off if you take too long to do your measurements. The model I have only goes up to 4 lbs. The model with higher capacity costs way more. I've got used to this limitations.

It is really handy, compact, and you safe a lot of time and washing from using measuring cups, measuring spoons, etc. In fact, measuring by weight is faster and cleaner than measuring by volume. The scale has a easy zero out reset, so you can keep adding your ingredients one after another.

By the way, I use my scale on the grams settings (there is a little tab you switch between lb and grams, un-conveniently located underneath the scale, so really... I just measure all my stuff in grams now). Rose's recipes comes in grams. It is more accurate to measure in grams than in oz because it is a smaller numbering. In a way it is easier to measure in grams, too, because you just look at one number (total number of grams) and not at two numbers (lb and oz).

Ciao. /H

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Good point! I've got to get myself a scale if I'm going to keep at this!

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Oops, I wouldn't know, I measure by weight =)

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Hector and Mattie, one thing I do not understand in the directions in the book - when she says to throw out about 1/2 the starter (i.e. 1/2 cup). The starter when it's "risen" is 2-3 cups, but once it's stirred down, it's way less than that. So do you measure when it's in its "inflated" state, or after stirring down.

I guess the question is, if I'm feeding it with 1/2 cup bread flour and 1/4 cup water, how much of the starter am I including in that mixture?

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Thank you both. I hope to find time to bake this weekend (it's iffy at the moment, but I'll try). I'll get back to you next week!

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Exactly Mattie. The sourdough bacteria feeds on flour, after a few days most of it will be digested, so you need to replenish.

I find 7 days feeding in the refrigerator, perfect for me. I refrigerate my starter immediatelly after been fed. Rose Levy's schedule is pretty accurate (leaving the refreshed starter at room temperature for some time depending how soon you will bake). My refrigerator is rather cold (30oF). If I feed my starter every 2 days, I think I will loose most of it (the bacteria wouldn't have enough time to reproduce)

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Davia,
Hector has it covered! I experienced much the same as Hector recounts. I also used the Basic Sourdough Bread recipe for my first and second loaves; the first batch did not rise as much as the recipe indicated, but I noticed an increase in the rise amount with the second loaf. I attribute this to feeding it several times (every 2-3 days) for the first 2 weeks. The second loaf was made at the end of these 2 weeks when it had frequent feedings. Perhaps the feedings provide an environment for more natural yeast to develop, and with time, the more mature the starter, the more reliable and successful your rise process will be. As for the amounts to feed it, I do exactly as Rose suggests in her book. I, too, have about 1/3 cup of mother starter. I hope these posts help! Let us know how it turns out!

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Hello Davia, are you using Rose Levy's book Bread Bible? It is all well explained, how to maintain your starter from page 426. The first recipe is the one I would recommend you try first, Basic Sourdough Bread on page 444. Follow the directions closelly, it will work fine.

When you say that you don't get 3 or 4 times the volume of the original, are you talking about just for your starter, or this is already the bread dough (starter plus lots of flour and water to make a loaf).

If you are saying that your starter does not rise that high, mine's only rise 2 times and very slowly (I keep my starter refrigerater, and after about 5 days, it reaches twice volume).

If you are saying that your bread dough is not rising that high, the first time I made my bread, it only rose twice, sometimes even less. You don't want to rise for too many hours, it will reach its maximum height possible, and then it will deflate. As you keep baking and maintaining your starter, your rises will be better. A good way to have good rise is to break your bread making process in 2 or 3 steps. As explained from page 444 of Bread Bible, first you only add enough flour/water to double the volume of a little bit of starter. After it has risen to double volume, or not longer than 6 hours, at room temperature, then you add more flour/water to double the volume again. Let this rise to double again or 6 hours, and now you add the larger amount of flour/water to make a loaf. At this point you let it rise to double of volume, then without deflating it much you shape it and let it rise a little more and bake it. I believe, with time, you will be able to rise your final loaf 1 more time.

Again, never let your dough or initial starter/dough steps rise all the way to the maximum until it collapses. This will be pass its peak.

Good luck. Please try answer my questions, I love finding out more experiences about sourdough, it is such alive dough, almost like having a child in the house.

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Sorry, me again (and hope I'm not being too much of a pest). Which recipe do you think is a good first one to use with my starter? Do you use the starter right out of the fridge, or so you let it come to room temperature? Do you use it to make a pre-ferment, or put it right into the bread dough? How much starter do you use for one loaf?

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Sorry, that post was from me.

Also, how much starter do you have in your "mother" - should I have more than 1/3 cup?

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Thanks Hector and Mattie. Mine is/was a stiff starter to begin with. As I said, getting it to "act" wasn't a problem, it's just that it would never get up to 3 or 4 times the volume of the original. Mattie, I'm going to feed it today. Would you recommend feeding it with 1/4 cup flour and 2 T water, or more flour, more water? Once I stir it down, I have about 1/3 cup of starter in the jar.

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Davia:
I agree with Hector..try making a loaf! However, be sure to note that Rose recommends feeding your new active starter every 3 days for the first 2 weeks, and then go to once a week. I also converted mine to a stiff starter; I find it much easier to maintain as well. Also, your bread will develop in flavor and activity over time. My very first loaf took almost twice as long to rise as what the recipe indicated, the second loaf went on the long side of the time frame recommended. Enjoy the results, it is well worth the effort!

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Hello Davia, from what you are saying, I believe your starter is active, mature, ready to be used. Are you following Bread Bible Basic Sourdough Bread? Read the previous pages on how to convert a liquid starter to a solid one, I keep my starter as a solid state, it is much easier to maintain. To keep it alive, feed it once a week. Your starter is ready to use within 1 day of been fed to about 1 day prior to been re-refed.

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Hector and Mattie, how did you know when it reached "active state"? I guess I've been impatient, but after about 12 days, my starter does the same thing every time -- it starts "growing" immediately (within minutes) but tops out at about 2-1/2 times (more than double, less than triple) , then deflates. It looks active - lots of holes, etc., and smells good, but it never reaches triple or quadruple the original volume. Should I continue to feed it daily? Any other suggestions?

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Hi Mattie, I took me 28 days to reach active state!!! After 7 days, each day I was basically just dumping and refreshing what looked like "no activity" until on day 25 or so, thing just became live. I thought it would be faster since I live in warm Hawaii. I have baked with this starter weekly since it was born sometime in fall 2006. Each time I see my dough rise, I call it a miracle, just flour and water, no "yeast."

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I wanted to offer a belated thanks to Justin and Mila for their words of encouragement and suggestions as I finally have an active starter! Patience is indeed a virtue! I incorporated suggestions from the both of you, along with continued patience and my starter reached its active state on day 13. I have since made 2 loaves of bread. The taste is better than I could have possibly imagined and it was indeed such a rewarding experience to finally see results! Thanks so much to you, and of course, to Rose, who inspired me to press on.

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By the way, it's very good. I guess if you don't like blue cheese you wouldn't think so though!

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My starter smells the same... slightly beery and yeasty. It's just the bread. The bread doesn't smell like blue cheese but has a definite blue cheese flavor. I've been using the same recipe over and over again so nothing new there.

What do you think?

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Cassandra, does your starter smell the same or just bread?

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I have a sourdough starter made from rye flour. I've noticed that my bread has a distinct blue cheese flavor. Has anyone else ever noticed a blue cheese flavor from sourdough?

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RE Mattie April 4th - Sour dough starter
I have been maintaining sour dough starter for over a year and during that time have used King Arthur (bread flour) several times. Each time I use it, the starter seems to change consistency for the worse, tending to separate between feedings. Each time I've returned to a more basic brand of bread flour with the greatest success from a high gluten type. Perhaps you should experiment with a different type of flour just to see what if any differences you find.

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Justin & Mila:
Thanks to both of you!!! I appreciate the information about bacteria vs. yeast. I feel certain that is exactly where my starter is. Mila, it is indeed very liquid. It reaches a liquid state after 12 hours. The separated liquid is fairly clear thus far. So, I will take both recommendations into account, more flour and more patience! You guys are wonderful! I will keep you posted on my attempts. It is a true joy to correspond with people who have both the knowledge and passion for baking. Thanks again!

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Mattie, is your starter stiff enough? The fast sepaprtion of the liquid sometimes happens when there's not enough flour in the starter. If it's pretty liquid - try feeding it using more flour.

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You may just be impatient so far, eight days is still very early. I could be wrong here, but the liquid on top of the starter can come generally from two things. One is simple condensation, in this case nothing is happening but the liquid should be water with no discernable color. If it does have color then it means that you haven't really achieved balance in the culture. By that I mean that the acidic liquid formed on top is primarily a by product of bacteria, don't worry its ok, so the proportional of yeast to bacteria is still to low. This is happening because the population doubling rate of bacteria can be substantially faster than that of yeast. So in a starter you need proportionally more yeast cells than bacteria cells to achieve balance. So how do you achieve balance, just keep feeding the starter and throwing some out. And give it a try in bread once in a while, if it seems to sluggish just mix a small amount of comerical yeast with water sugar and flour to form a small piece of dough then knead it into the sluggish dough. That will get that bread going, then you just have to try again later. Achieving a great balance takes time though, actually I was very happy with my starter for a long time, then I noticed it changed. Specifically it stopped forming the liquid on top, I was very worried as this was very dependable but it stopped after maintaining the starter for about 6 months. Why did it stop? I have on clue, sorry. But my starter works wonders, actually I can double the bulk of my breads in two hours if its in a box with a small lightbulb. If not in the box with added heat it just depends on the temperature of the room. Anyway I hope this helps to your understanding somewhat.

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Mila:
Thanks for that tip! Any advice on how long I should wait/persist in trying to get the starter active? I do not believe my starter is active yet (I am on my 3rd attempt, day 8.) The smell is good, not bad, and it is separating with liquid on top (which I believe is a good thing.) I just can't seem to achieve any activity--it just bubble slightly, but no increase in volume and then deflation, as I have been eyeing it vigilantly! I don't want to give up. I did on day 10 with my second attempt. Am I too impatient?

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Probably everyone knows but i wanted to share some information i know on sourdough turning from good to "smelling bad". If you feel that your spourdough starter, which is active and good started to smell not right (sat too long at room temperature or you've forgotten about it for quite a while in the fridge) - wash it! My friend taught me how to do it and i usually do it when i go overseas for couple months and when i come back its smell tells me that the starter missed me and needs some attention. For 1 cup of starter take 3-cup container, put the starter there and fill with room-temperature water up to the top, stirring constantly and vigorously. Then discard all but 1 cup and add 1 cup flour + 1/2 cup water to it, mix and leave in a pilot light lit oven for 6 hours then discard all but 1 cup starter and feed again with 1 cup flour + 1/2 cup water and leave in an oven for 6 hours again. After that discard all but 1 cup again, feed 1 cup flour+1/2 cup water again, wait 1 hour and then put the jar back into the fridge.
It always works with my starter made following the Bread Bible instructions.

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I am on my third attempt at making sourdough starter. I have followed the instructions from the Bread Bible to the letter. I am on day 7 and still no increase in volume. (On my second attempt at starter, I gave up after 10 days and no increase in volume (dome & recede) activity.) This "3rd-try" starter smells wonderful like a good starter should smell. I used organic rye flour to start, have used unbleached King Arthur bread flour to feed and bottled water and carefully monitored temperature. At the appropriate time, it has been sitting in a room 77-80 degrees. I have read other posts who have successfully arrived at a good starter with patience. How long do I need to be patient? Am I doing anything counterproductive to help it along? With my 2nd attempt, I tried "boosting" it with equal parts rye/bread flour. Still after 10 days, no increase in volume. Do I need to wait longer? Any help anyone out there would be appreciated. Happy Belated Birthday Rose! I am so delighted with this site and have learned so much from you and others!

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I am trying to make a sourdough bread using this starter a friend gave me for hemin bread, it is fed with milk and flour, can I switch it over to water and flour? My research says it's the same as Amish friendship cake starter so I made the bread and gave it to 3 friends but I waited an extra week so I'd have some starter for me. Hope you understand this.Help!

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I thought I would check in to report that I have a lovely sourdough starter! This was my third attempt and it worked like a charm. It took slightly longer than the Bread Bible recipe and I wish I would have kept better notes but as I posted here, I did have some variables (lower starting temperature, etc.). I have made several loaves of your Basic Sourdough without any variations and I made the Sourdough Rye. It is fantastic and I am so glad that I persevered (with your support and explicit instructions). I continue to marvel at the thoroughness of your recipes. It is such a comfort when trying a recipe for the first time. I confess that I have been baking the Sourdough recipe in a pot, a la the No Knead protocol which I love and hate: I hate getting the boule into the pot and worry through the entire bake that it has been mangled. But I also hate putting the ice cubes into the oven. My next bread will be the Basic Sourdough with Extra Flavor.

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Today is Day 5 of my starter odyssey. Because I was having my book group last night I couldn't post yesterday. I really wanted to because I was so excited that everything seemed to be on track: just like the Bible said, lots of bubbles, an increase to at least 12 oz. which then deflated. I sniffed and my first impression was an acetic acid smell but much more complex. I was very anxious that it was in a jar that was too small because the Bible said that if it was active, it could increase in volume to 3 c. so I washed and re-washed a larger jar and transferred 120g to the new jar. I fed it and put it in it's special cozy place between the refrig and my Gaggia. Temp. 72 degrees. That seemed to slow down the fermentation. This morning it is just sitting there but it looks good and I will wait.

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I recently made a peanut butter layer cake. I've been baking for years but mostly cupcakes, cookies and brownies. Regardless, I'm not sure I have ever made a dry cake before and this one turned out dry as a tumbleweed. I baked it in a convection oven until my cake tester came clean so the middles wouldn't collapse. What can I add/take away to make the cake more moist? (i'd also like to add more peanut butter)

The recipe is as follows: 2 1/2 cups all purpose flour
1 teaspoon baking powder
1 teaspoon baking soda
1/2 teaspoon salt
10 tablespoons (1 1/4 sticks) unsalted butter, room temperature
1/2 cup old-fashioned (natural) chunky peanut butter
1 pound golden brown sugar
4 large eggs
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
1 cup buttermilk

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I am so glad that you wrote that everyone who has written to you and has persevered has succeeded. I started my starter 40 hours ago and it looks about how it looked when I put it "to bed." Admittedly, I left it for the first 24 hours in my garage at about 58 degrees because I knew that my kitchen (which seemed like the right place and good for observing) was too warm for the first 48 hours. After 24 hours I moved it to the closet of a back bedroom that doesn't get much heat and measured 66 degrees. It smells "different" from when I started but in no way is it like pancake batter. It is a paste--no bubbles. I intend to feed it and hope for the best. Will keep you posted.

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Is it also true that you should persevere even if it smells really bad? My kitchen is pretty cold, and my starter was very old (on the back shelf of the refrigerator for years and years--however, it did come through when I dragged it out for pancakes once in a blue moon.) So I decided I would build it up per your instructions in the bread bible, but it just dwindled and started to smell, shall we say, inappropriate.
I'm discouraged--but I did save some, and will try again.
Maybe when it warms up.

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I've had this happen 2 time now. I start my sourdough starter and it is fine for the first several days. Then all of a sudden it seems to quit - just small bubbles on top and loss of most of the protein structure (i.e. it gets runny). What am I doing wrong? Is it getting contamainated? Thx for any help you can provide.

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Hi Rose
I have had much success baking bread with the sourdough starter I cultivated in November and yesterday I followed your instructions on page 439 – How to use a sourdough starter in place of commercial yeast in other recipes and converted my very favourite Tyrolean Ten Grain Torpedo using my stiff sourdough starter eliminating the commercial yeast entirely. The loaves baked up beautifully with a nice crust and crumb, very tasty. I am very pleased with the results. I doubled the recipe as I like to have an extra loaf around which is a good thing because one loaf has already been eaten. Your instructions were easy to follow and I will definitely be baking this bread again. Thank you.
Oriana

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Rose:
I am forever grateful that I "happened" upon your Cake Bible so many years ago, and I am now the proud owners of the Pie & Pastry and Bread Bibles. You are indeed a gem and have my full admiration! Everything I have made from you books have surpassed all expectations, with the exception, now, of the sourdough starter. I am now on my second "attempt" --I follow your instructions to the letter. I cannot get past the strong "alcohol" odor it develops on the 3rd and 4th day. Othere starters I have made have not yeilded this except for one, and I did attempt bread with it and its flavor was exactly that of the starter--alcohol, almost medicinal in quality. What am I doing wrong? My temperatures in my home have been on the cold side lately, so I have put it in the oven with the oven light on on the days where warmer temps are required. My thermometer reads 80 degrees. Help, anyone?

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I will be baking and cooking for 30 boy scouts going on a ski trip 1/31 to 2/4, staying at a church near Mt Snow. I plan to bake apple pies (using your cream cheese pastry & appple pie recipe) and a chocolate-devils food-fudge cake in advance. i have all your books, no choc/devils food cake? can i bake them and freeze them a week or so in advance. i like the choc devils food cake recipe in Cooks Illustrated. do you have one that i may have missed.
enjoyed all the comments and your replies about the nytimes bread by lahey. i have baked the berad 4 time, first was fine, 2nd, 3, & 4th were wet. i am now using your revised and will let you know how it turns out. if you cannot bake the bbread off because of time can you refrigerate the dough? for how long?
marc r
marc r

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May one substitute Gold Medal unbleached flour for regular
Gold Medal flour ?
We are particularly interested in this change in our banana nut bread recipes.

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Help... I made a starter from flour and water. Everything I've read says that liquid sometimes forms on the top. The liquid formed in the bottom of my starter with the frothy part on top. Does this mean it is bad and should be discarded?

Thanks.

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Hi Rose,

I can't find my original entry but you asked me to let you know, so here goes. I was having problems with a purchased (Baker's) sourdough starter. As you recommended, I followed the instructions in your book, using whole wheat flour to feed it every day, letting it rise and deflate, etc. I noticed after a few days that it was getting up to the same mark every time, in about 2-3 hours, then deflating in another 3-4 hours. It wasn't quite doubling, but after about 5 days, I figured, close enough. This was a liquid starter. Then I converted it using your instructions to a stiff starter and made the basic sourdough.(I fed it with bread flour for the recipe). YOWZAH! Big, beautiful holes and shatteringly crisp crust. It looked like the pugliese on the cover of your book, but with bigger holes. Should it have risen more (it was about 2 1/2" high)? My only improvement would be more sour flavor, being a San Francisco native... can you tell me how to achieve this? Also, I fed the remainder of the starter before refrigerating it, and only left it out for 1/2 hour beforehand since I'm not sure when I'm going to bake again. Do I need to feed it between breads? I got a little confused about the storage feeding and the first feeding since in the first feeding for the bread you say to discard the remainder - that would seem to be the part that should be stored...I may have fed it an extra time. Oh, one last correction for your recipe... that bread would NEVER last 3 days in our household; we had about half of it for dinner with soup and salad and the remainder fpr breakfast with butter and jam! YUM!
Thanks for being here for all of us. This is a great resource.

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Rose, how can I make a scratch cake using fresh fruit purees, such as strawberry, peach etc? I love your CakeBible I use it often. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us.
Ruby

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I have hypersensitive rancidity detectors among my taste buds. How does one find absolutely fresh whole wheat (and other grains) flour?? I know I need to keep it in the fridge or freezer once I get it...

Thanks, Rose!

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Rose, your fantastic details, recipes and instructions in The Bread Bible have helped and guided me to making wonderful bread, and I decided it was time to start a sourdough journey as well. Today is day 10 and finally there is enough activity to start building up for bread. I have 2 questions about the flour. Since I don't live in the USA the choice of flour is different. ALL brands of flour here are unbleached, and the range of protein for all purpose flour is 10.5 - 11 %. There is only one brand of bread flour and that is enriched (with ascorbic acid as well)and has also 11% protein. Until now for breadmaking I've been using all purpose flour and adding vital wheat gluten according to the amount you advise in The Bread Bible and it has worked out very well. My first question is: when maintaining and expanding the sourdough starter should I add VWG as well or just in the final dough itself? The other question about flour has to do with cakes: the only cake flour available is unbleached and it has 9.5% protein. Many of your cake recipes that I have seen call for bleached flour and I am looking forward to getting The Cake Bible as well but I'm wondering whether I'll be able to make any of the recipes. Is there any way to use unbleached flour instead? Any substitutes, adjustments, or even tricks you can suggest?
Thank you so much for all of the time and effort you put in to help us.

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How do you make cakes from scratch that are moist?

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