Real Baking with Rose Levy Beranbaum

I have been experimenting with the Italian Meringue method of making Parisian macarons and like most am wondering why the shell I end up with is thick and sweet. I have tasted one that uses this method that has a thin but crackly shell but not sweet at all. My solution is to add more almonds to lessen the sweetness, but I am wondering if I did cook my sugar too much...concentrated the sugar and that's what makes it sweeter than I like?

Reply to this      Posted by: Veron | October 31, 2008 2:23 PM #

rose, how about making your flour close to the italian OO!!!

Reply to this      Posted by: hector | October 29, 2008 12:24 AM #

Thanks to all for very clear answers to my question.

Roy Dankman

Reply to this      Posted by: Roy Dankman | October 28, 2008 1:06 PM #

for breads like artisan breads that need multiple rises (multiple punching-downs) a lower gluten containing flour is prefered: the rises use up starch content in the flour. and the result is the proportion of gluten in the dough becomes more and more important ????

Reply to this      Posted by: hien nguyen | October 27, 2008 10:32 PM #

I recently bought some "Better for Bread" flour and see that the protien content is 10%. I would appreciate your explaining why this average protien content flour is considered good for bread baking. I was under the impression "bread" flour would have a protien content of 12-15%.

Thank you
Roy Dankman

Reply to this      Posted by: Roy Dankman | October 27, 2008 6:06 PM #

Hello Rose,
in the Bread Bible book, i read that to cool the panettone, leave it "top side up" on soft pillow covered with...
shouldn't it be "top side down" instead?
thank you
hien

Reply to this      Posted by: hien nguyen | October 27, 2008 9:09 AM #

Cathy, the Panettone Bible is written here:

http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2006/12/hectors_panettone.html

hope you find the answer.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | August 11, 2008 2:53 PM #

What makes panettone crumbly? When it is sliced, it breaks apart and does not hold its shape. Flavor is wonderful but texture is poor.

Reply to this      Posted by: cathy | August 9, 2008 11:58 PM #

amy, you are welcome. I grow my own vanilla and perhaps have reached self 'sustainability' for it. My last and biggest year was 5 beans, at $20 each, so about $100, that is my definition of 'sustainability' which is enough money to buy commercial vanilla extract for 1 year which I do since 5 beans is not enough!

what I do is soak 1 cured bean in 1 cup of vodka, in a glass bottle in a cool dark room, and start using it after 1 month. the vodka turns dark just like vanilla extract. if available, I use clear grappa or peruvian pisco instead.

when I do creme anglaise or other preparations calling for seeds, I rinse the used beans and put them in the vodka jar, it is a great use for used beans.

you may want to get reminded, that commercial vanilla extract has sugar and caramel coloring in the most part, my vanilla vodka does not so it is not sweet but it IS vanilla.

one last thing I want to try is getting La Cuisine's French vanilla arome and mix it all up.

i also love to make vanilla sugar (google this, it is widely known) and it is the only sugar I use when baking with Rose's Christmas Cookies calling for vanilla extract.

it is very 'easy' to grow your own vanilla plant, it needs a lot of shade, daily misting, temperatures of 85oF/65oF year round. Oh, also some human love making once a year for hand pollinating each flower before 10 am and daily for about a week since a cluster has about 5 to 7 flowers and each flower opens one day apart.

here is a post I did last year on my copper topper cake, the vanilla plant is pictured on one of the links.

http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2007/04/away_until_may_1.html#comment-37248

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | June 13, 2008 2:26 PM #

home made vanilla with voka! wow! do you grow the vanilla plant? or did you use add the vanilla beans to the vodka? also, was there a noticeable change in taste with an all white egg?

thanks for the recipe.

Reply to this      Posted by: amy | June 13, 2008 7:19 AM #

amy. my perfect flan calls for 9 eggs beaten at speed 1 for 45 minutes with the non air incorporating flat beater with 4 cans evaporated milk, 1 cup sugar, and 1 tb of home made vanilla with vodka or pisco. bake on mold with caramel done with 1 cup sugar, on non preheated oven and room temp water bath. 60 minutes with low convection at 300oF, then don't open oven and leave unmoved until oven is cold, about 3 hours. Refrigerate for 48 hours before serving so caramel releases most.

for all white, replace by volume for whole eggs. but don't fool health as flan is mostly sugar calories and fat from milk!

Reply to this      Posted by: hector | June 13, 2008 1:46 AM #

Hector - love to have a copy of your flan using lots of egg whites.

i am a filipina and i make flans with 8 egg yolks. with high cholesterol and all - i'd be curious to try your flan using egg whites only?

Reply to this      Posted by: amy | June 12, 2008 11:30 PM #

I've seen a picture of the upside down panettone holder in the Culinaria Italy book. It is metal harness with pins that pinch thru the perimeter of your panettone base thus you hang it upside down. You could make do by using those steamer plate pliers sold in Chinatown.

But really, I have made great domed panettone without having to hang! The recipe I use is EXACT (ingredients and preparation method) from The Bread Bible.

Here is a picture of a giant panettone (2x recipe) I made after running out of the panettone paper molds last Xmas (I though having 3 dozen panettone paper molds would suffice....but I actually ended up baking 40 panettones instead of 36). I lined a 5qt cast iron dutch oven with parchment.

http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2006/12/hectors_panettone.html

Be sure to scroll down, I've just posted a link with more photos. Besides the nice ones, there is one picture with a not so pretty 'subject' which happened when the final rise was done too long and the top flattened from yeast hyper activity.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector | October 2, 2007 2:33 PM #

ROSE:
IN MANY ARTICLES WRITTEN ABOUT PANETTONE, THEY MENTION COOLING RACK....BUT NOT YOUR ORDINARY ONES. I THOUGHT MAYBE YOU HAD SEEN THEM IN ITALY OR IN A SPECIALTY SHOP. I HAVE HEARD IT CALLED A PANETTONE HOLDER. IT IS STORED UPSIDE DOWN.

Reply to this      Posted by: MONICA | October 2, 2007 11:26 AM #

HELLO ROSE: I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHERE TO PURCHASE THESE SPECIAL COOLING RACKS TO COOL PANETTONE. I UNDERSTAND THEY ARE USED IN ITALY. MAYBE YOU HAVE A SOURCE IN YOUR TRAVELS?

Reply to this      Posted by: MONICA | October 2, 2007 11:13 AM #

Can anyone out there please tell me where I can find sour pitted red cherries? I want to make cherry pies but cannot find good filling. My mother years ago used to use Thank You brand pie filling which was very good but I cannot find it anywhere - not even sour canned cherries. Any clues, anyone?

Reply to this      Posted by: Jan Flowers | December 24, 2006 4:51 PM #

When baking, do you measure dried fruit by volume or by weight?

Reply to this      Posted by: Robbie | December 24, 2006 12:37 PM #

What stores in NYC are going to be selling your HEAVENLY
CAKE KITS? I have been searching for them to no avail.
Are any catalogs other than Coastal Foods going to be selling these item?
Thanks Jennie

Reply to this      Posted by: Jennie Molinas | December 24, 2006 6:15 AM #

That is a "big" Panny Hector. Very nice. I'd like to see your recipe for flan; I appreciate your posting the picture. I have a large bowl with egg whites that make me feel guilty every time I go to the fridge. I am in denial about egg whites. Perhaps Rose, those who visit here with problems or those who are proud of their efforts could share photo's, I for one like to view what others are doing. I don't have a clue how to share and post photo's however. Busy weekend, everyone have a safe and loving holiday.

Reply to this      Posted by: Laurel | December 24, 2006 1:28 AM #

Oh, one more thing, I've was wondering what to do with all the extra egg whites from the 30 panettones I made. Answer I found, is make fat free flan (creme caramel). Use fresh fat free milk, no cream or evaporated milk, use a little bit more egg whites than your whole eggs measured by weight, and pump up the sugar a little. It came out good. I will post my recipe if you are interested. /H

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector Wong | December 22, 2006 2:38 PM #

Hello all, here my "final" results with Rose's Panettone recipe, page 511 on the Bread Bible. Please see picture posted on 12/21 (I am humbled). I believe the issue I had about the panettone not rising wasn't over kneading (overheating), but instead it was a too low ambient temperature during the final rise/shaping. I live in Hawaii and it is plus 80 degrees outside, but indoors is around 70 to 75 degrees in my kitchen. I think Rose's recipe is EXACT and perfect, but for one to replicate it at home you need to improvise a little if you can't do exactly what is written. Starting from the end of the recipe: ONE: if you can't have a plastic container with a lid and big enough to rest your panettone inside with a cup of hot water for its final rise/shaping, then you must make sure your ambient temperature is 80 degrees (I would say 75 is too low, and plus 80 too high, so anything just below 80 is perfect). Rose states to place your panettone in the closed plastic container with a cup of hot water, and place that on a room between 75 to 80 oF, which I interpret it that your panettone should be in the upper 70s. I don't have a plastic container for my final rising, or should I say instead since I am making 6 panettones at a time, for a total of 30 within the pass 10 days, I don't have that many containers. I use a clear garbage plastic bag (15 gallon size?), put my panettone inside, close the bag with lots of air inside so it doesn't touch my panettone. And I place this bag on my kitchen countertop on top of a baking cooling rack and make sure my kitchen is at upper 70s or at 80. To achieve this "entire room temperature," I close all my kitchen windows (in Hawaii, we live with our open air open windows), and I place a couple of uncovered stock pots with boiling water at high heat on my stove and let the steam rise my ambient temperature to 80. Be careful if your pantry is in your kitchen, your pantry foods or other goodies like candy, chocolate, etc, may suffer to be at 80 degrees. Once the kitchen has been at 80 for about 1 to 1.5 hours, you can turn off your boiling water, it will remain comfortably at that temperature provided you keep your windows closed. Just monitor with your home thermometer. At this point, pass the 1.5 to 2 hours, even if your kitchen drops to 70, your panettone inside those plastic bags will remain at about 80 for about 2 hours more (the dough have reached that temperature already). In about 3 hours, you get perfect rising (dough should be at the level of the top of the panettone paper pan). I put exactly 816 grams of dough on each pan, as estimated in the recipe. One detail: why doing this final rise/shaping on a baking cooling rack? Because since your dough start at refrigerated temperature, the bottom will remain so cold for long time. If it is on a cooling rack, you have warm air flowing underneath, too. Perhaps this is the reason the bottom of the pans are made of a corrugated cardboard so air can flow underneath.

Now, going to point TWO: follow religiously the business letter folds indicated on the recipe, and do one more if you can at the final shaping. I am making batches of 6 panettones at a time. During the initial dough development, I improvise and do the folding the best I can on a giant bowl (about 2 feet wide). I don't have enough countertop space to roll a dough of 6 panettones. So instead I just use a big wooden spoon to fold the dough the best I can to resemble business letter turns. I stirr, punch, toss the dough with the spoon within the capacity of my giant bowl with generous dusting of flour. I do it first when I am adding the raisins/citron. Then I do it one more time after sitting the dough in the fridge for the first hour. And I do it one more time after sitting the dough for the second hour prior to storing the dough in individual portions. I store the dough in aluminum foil for the ripening for 48 hours. I find aluminum foil much easier to handle than zip lock bags. When you do the final shaping putting the dough in the pan, I do one more business fold, this time I do it with my rolling pin on my countertop. Since I am dealing with 1 portion at a time, it is maneable.

Point THREE (and I hope I haven't bored you yet, you must be saying, Just buy the panettone it is just as good), I skip the chesnuts in syrup (however if you can find them and like them, I suspect it will be great). Instead of chesnuts in syrup I double the raisins and add equal volume with a mix of Italian Citron and "grocery store" candied fruits. Make a nice mix of Italian Citron and colorful grocery store citron or candied fruit, and use a volume equal to your volume of raisins. Be aware that raisins weight much more, so you can't put the same weight of citron/fruit otherwise you end up with too much of citron/fruit.

What else: I use my convection oven built into my stove(KitchenAid Architect Series stove, not a pro-line series), 325 degrees for 65 minutes. The convection is turned on and I bake 3 panettones at once. If you bake only one, you don't need to have the convection turned on. I lay 8 inch square quary tiles and sit the panettones directly on it. My oven is tall enough, so on the top rack I have a cast iron rectangle grill, this helps greatly to maintain your oven temperature. I do tent each panettone with aluminum foil after the first 30 minutes.

In conclusions, my panettones don't resemble exactly store-bough panettones. I would say it is very close, just as good or better, and perhaps it has better aroma and flavor. I love what I call "the home made taste and smell" of it.

Good luck.

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector Wong | December 22, 2006 2:36 PM #

I bought Gold Medal Harvest King bread flour by mistake yesterday I wanted a flour to make a pie crust with. Is it OK to use this flour for pie crust or should I pick up another bag of a different type. Thanks for your help.

Reply to this      Posted by: Marie | December 22, 2006 6:48 AM #

How do you prevent fried calamari from becoming tough ? I need to know by 12/23/2006

Reply to this      Posted by: Bert | December 21, 2006 7:00 AM #

Ah the jackets, guys look great in them, they add about 20 lbs on a gal. Mine is packed away somewhere. Actually since body piercing is so popular I might pierce my ear for the thermometer ,the other ear can hold my glasses (I'm always looking for them too). . .

Reply to this      Posted by: Laurel | December 19, 2006 10:02 PM #

Panettone texture; soft, feathery, moist and fragrant.More bread then fruit so as to enjoy the silky taste of the bread.Sounds like Hector overheated the dough and killed it. To save Hector more bad results I have a suggestion.The critical stage.After making the starter in the mixer bowl, top with the flour mixture ,cover with plastic. Leave on the table covered with plastic wrap until starter bubbles thru.Now Just put the bowl in the fridge and cool it down for at least an hour. Because mixing dough causes friction, and friction causes heat; buy an instant read thermometer. Follow Roses direction for mixing dough exactly and plunge that thermometer into dough until it reaches at least 78 degrees but do NOT mix beyond 83 degrees.Chilling before mixing will allow you to knead longer and not overheat. Now the dough is the right temp to continue Roses directions.You will have a cool dough which is very alive. Rose has perfected the perfect Panettone. I make it perfect now. One of Rose's happy students.

Reply to this      Posted by: Laurel | December 19, 2006 8:04 AM #

Dear Rose, thank you for the reply. So "don't over proof the dough otherwise the sugar will be eaten up." On the next trial (#2), on the same dough as trial #1, before the final shapping, I rolled the 2-day-refrigerated dough (the same dough that over proofed) and sprikled 100% more raising with a little bit of flour and a little bit of powdered sugar (I use my blender to powder regular sugar). Then I gave it 2 business turns. Then dropped it in the panettone paper pan, let it rise and bake. This one came sweet just right, and the texture was great, stretchy, elastic, will pull appart with fingers (the texture on the first panettone was a little bit more like pound cake).

A couple days later, I gave it another trial. This time, I made sure at each stage, proofing will not be pass double volume. I doubled the raisins. Also, I didn't use my mixer to make the final dough (when adding the essences, yolks, butter, etc). My helper said, perhaps you need to kneed by hand, so we did, and it looked very nicelly textured (strechy, stringy). 2 days later after refrigeration I did the final shapping into the pans (I didn't do one more rolling with folding of more raisins). To my surprise, 2 things happened: ONE: the dough did not fill the pan even after 1 night of proofing, was 1.5 inches short!!! TWO: the final texture was like pound cake (not stretchy at all). I am guessing that it is a must to use the mixer to kneed the dough, and that perhpas I should ammend your recipe to fold the extra raisins at the final shaping to achive my desired texture? Today I am starting my 3rd batch, I will double the raisins and will use the mixer to kneed the dough, and I won't do the final dough rolling and folding at the final shapping, so I can clear one variable from another. What do you think creates that wonderful panettone texture?

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector Wong | December 18, 2006 7:46 PM #

I recently made a cake that called for the use of a Bunt Cake Pan, I did not have a bunt cake pan and used my tube cake pan and the cakse was a failure. Should I have increases or decrease some of my ingredients, in other words can you subsutitue cake pans?

Reply to this      Posted by: Essie Brister | December 18, 2006 10:22 AM #

Dear Rose; I've made the Panettone so many times I think I got it. The overnight refrigeration in the last step before shaping is a must. I had some problems with the 350 degree oven temp; when cutting the cross on top the tops went every direction, even falling off the sides in big blobs. I cut back to 1 tblsp lecithin per double recipe(I think it was just too much fat and it accounted for the blow outs. To keep this wonderful panettone under control I now bake it at 295 and NO cross. They are perfect.This item is being well received as a gift; they are lucky indeed. I am using those expensive chestnuts and the syrup, have cut back on them however and making up with broken pecans and more yellow raisins. Thought you'd like to know. Happy Holidays.

Reply to this      Posted by: Laurel | December 17, 2006 11:32 PM #

Dear Rose
I live a 2500 ft and canot make a pumpkin or cranberry bread without the center flopping. What do I need to change in my recipe. Thanks Pat

Reply to this      Posted by: Patricia Armbruster | December 17, 2006 3:39 PM #

Dear Rose. I was 19 when The Cake Bible was first published, and I have been using it every since then. I love your style of writing, techniques, and explanations. I have all the bibles now. I have just tried panettone, and it didn't turn out sweet at all. I replaced the chesnuts with citron. The amount of citron I used was equal in volume to the raisins in your recipe. Seems like I should have doubled the raisins, too, since I can hardly see any raisins in my slices. I prefer more raisins than too much citron. My roommate is from Italy, he said "it is good, smells and tastes good, but you need to bite into a raisin to have the sweetness."

Did I do something wrong? I am using all the suggested long prep time (sit the sponge in the refrigerator for 24 hours, sit the dough for 48 hours). I live in Hawaii, and my kitchen is 75-80 degrees. Is that too hot? I noticed the sponge bubbled so quickly by the time I put it in the fridge after 1 hour at room temp. By the next day, the sponge/flour mix was about 4 times in volume. Then, when I made the dough and let it rise for 1.5 to 2 hours, I noticed it doubled to 4 times too. Then when I did the final shaping, it doubled 3 times (which I think is desirable). Perhaps all this rising ate away all the sugar? Yeast feeds on sugar to creat bubbles. Your recipe calls for only corn syrup, I used light corn syrup from Safeway. All my other ingredients came from The Bakers Catalog. Unsweeted sadness, /Hector

Reply to this      Posted by: Hector Wong | December 14, 2006 5:32 PM #

I am having all kinds of aggravation trying to reconcile my American bread recipes with the French and German flours that are available here. Since moving to Europe, none of my bread seems to come out right anymore.

Specifically: when an American recipe calls for bread flour, what would you recommend that I use in its place? My impression is that French and German flours have lower protein than American ones. There is no way to tell from the bags what kind of wheat has been used, and often, if the flour comes from a local mill, I'm not even really sure what the protein content is. I don't really understand the practical implications of ash content in relation to protein or the amount of gluten (if there is one!)

I know that I need to appreciate the qualities of the local flours, but how to I compensate for the differences with my American recipes?

This is what I generally have available to use:

French Type 55/German 550 -- protein content 11% to 11.2%; ash content 0.62 - 0.65%

French Farine bisé (it's either Type 65 or 80, I don't know which!! -- I can only buy this at health food stores and it comes from a local mill. The exact type is not printed on the bag). If it's truly type 65, ash content should be 0.62 - 0.75%. If it's type 80, the ash content should be 0.75 - 0.90%
as a side question -- is there anyway I can just tell if the farine bisé is type 65 or 80 by looking at it?

Whole Wheat/Type 110 ash content 1 - 1.20%

Dark Whole Wheat/Type 150 ash content 1.4%

Also when a recipe calls for bread flour, which one of the above would be the best one to use? Does it make any difference?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Reply to this      Posted by: expat | December 3, 2006 8:09 AM #

Hi Rose,
A friend of mine just found out her mother has Celiac disease (gluten allergy) and she wants to make Christmas dinner and desserts that her mom can eat. Could you recommend a really good gluten free cookbook/desserts or any advice on how to adapt your recipes to gluten free? Happy Holidays, Kim

Reply to this      Posted by: kim | December 1, 2006 8:15 AM #

Hi, Rose

I don´t know if I´m posting this in the right place but I have a question about the Neoclassical buttercream from your Cake Bible book. I made it once before and it turned out very well. Yesterday I tried it again and it turned into sweet scrambled eggs. I´m pretty sure it didn´t happen when I poured the hot syrup to the egg yolks since I followed the instructions to a T (I was using a stand mixer) and things looked fine. The problem, I think, started when I had to beat the mixture for 1 hour plus to get it to sort of cool to the touch. My stand mixer is a 5qt and it has 325 W. The poor thing was almost smoking and the motor felt really hot to the touch. Could the heat of the motor have cooked the egg yolks with the sugar syrup added? After like an hour, they started looking stringy (not like that at the beginning). Any ideas about it? I was so looking forward to making this recipe. It was great when I discovered that I didn´t have to throw away all the egg yolks after I make Italian Meringue Buttercream. I would really like to give it a try again. Do you think it would work if I use egg yolks from a carton? I don´t want to waste any more eggs.

Thanks,

Inma

Reply to this      Posted by: Inma Pérez | November 27, 2006 6:29 AM #

could you tell me about the first baking /bakery association in the world. At the monent how many baking association?
What is the Award for the best baker ?

Reply to this      Posted by: Nguyen thi thanh huong | November 26, 2006 7:58 PM #

Hello Rose,

I recently watched a video about "No Knead Bread" by NY Times Mark Bittman.

Here is the link:

http://video.on.nytimes.com/ifr_main.jsp?nsid=b77bd3890:10eccb5a131:ce5&fr_story=35eac03d90314ffed6a0c0ae143ab87b1474fb89&st=1163078924013&mp=FLV&cpf=false&fvn=9&fr=110906_082844_77bd3890x10eccb5a131xce6&rdm=159662.30211779475

Basically, the recipe states that the dough, cooked for few minutes in a covered pot (like Le Creuset) acts to trap moisture to produce crust. Also, technique of no-kneading and letting dough rise overnight in room temp (not refrig) is very different.

Any thoughts?

-Jaden

Reply to this      Posted by: Jaden | November 12, 2006 7:31 PM #

Hi Rose,

I live in Australia, and cannot get Sour Cherries. I was wondering if you know what kind of cherry tree they come from. I want to grow my own!
Thanks

Reply to this      Posted by: Sunshine | November 12, 2006 6:36 PM #

Your Panettone Recipe:Bread Bible. If I 4X would this affect the total salt added? Also I have added lecithin for moisture retention; someone advised also adding sucrose for moisture. Starting next week I am making up to 100 loaves for gift giving during December so the loaves would be stored for several weeks. My loaves turn out beautiful; but help with preservatives and moisture retention would be so helpful. One other Q; is there a marzipan or frosting recipe that is thick;drys creamy but firm that I could top the loaves with? I just know that Rose knows. Thanks so much!

Reply to this      Posted by: Laurel | November 10, 2006 9:37 AM #