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Hector's Panettone

Dec 21, 2006 | From the kitchen of Rose

Thought you'd all enjoy seeing what a magnificent panettone Hector from Hawaii has produced. He's posted several times about it and has been working relentlessly to achieve perfection! Bravo!

Comments

Hi Donnie, I feel for you. I work once a week at a sugar free bakery, they are very popular, but only if you knew what is used as substitutes..... a scary thing.

I am not an expert dietitian, but I feel there can't be panettone with all egg whites nor cholesterol free.

I would advice to look for the real thing, but perhaps eat a smaller serving according to your diet allowances. How about eating an eight of a slice every day during 1 week, instead of eating the whole slice in 1 day?

Often, baked goods that are labeled good for your health (sugar free, fat free, egg fat free, etc, etc) are full of chemicals that who knows what and how will react in your body.

A teaspoon of natural butter is healthier than a tablespoon of chemically processed shortening!

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I'm an old lover of Pannettone, but each year i suffer from heart palpitations a few months after eating it.

I don't care about the yellow color or richness that egg yolks give. Someone should make it with all egg whites instead of all the egg yolks. I'd buy it if it were cholesterol free.

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hi amy, the yellow hobart is still in the mechanic, the yellow kitchen is closing on august 30th, and reopening nearby on spromg 2009.

these moves are keeping me busier than bus, so I doubt I will make lots of panettone this year.

I a so proud you are mastring panettone, it is Italy's biggest bread contribution to the world!

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how's your hobart 20 qt mixer working? did the yellow color come out as you expected? how about a picture of your infamous kitchen/baking center? bet you have a large kitchen.

i tried a sourdough recipe for my last panetonne and it came out good. not as rich as Rose's recipe.

will experiment again - this time adding more eggs and butter (incorporating some of the richness of Rose's panetonne).

given the quantity of panetonne you make - are you buying your candied fruits and raisins in bulk?

with my experimentations, and my leftover candied stuff from last Christmas gone - i cant find any of the ingredients i need. The stores told me that they only carry those things during the holidays.

btw - congrats on getting your order for the cake expanded to catering the whole wedding.

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the lemon layer cake came out delicious even though i ended up using 10" cake pans. will do it again to improve on my cake baking ability.

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well done!!!

and by the way, I can't wait for my dream to become solid. found a seller of a wonderful old model hobart 20 quart mixer, it will be ideal for panettone of my volume, plus seller is a skilled hobart retiree mechanic and will paint the mixer THE YELLOW KITCHEN yellow! I've just got the paint sample.

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i was just mentioning how you were offering a solution for me.

finally got the book from the library. thought i'd copy one recipe but after going through the book - i'd literally have to copy the whole book!

so, again, Hector, you've motivated me to buy one of Rose's book. I've ordered the Cake Bible and can't hardly wait to get it.

So many recipes to try and not enough events and time to try them.

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Thanks Rose,

I think I figured it out. I can unsubscribe from the email that I receive.

Thanks again,

J

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uncheck the box "let me know if someone adds a comment.

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Hi,

I keep receiving emails whenever someone posts on this thread even though I posted 15 days ago. How do I get them to stop? It makes sense to get replies to your own posting but I get everything that's posted on this thread since I last posted
Thanks,
J

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every rose's book I own was bought new, except for the very few that are very out of print.

and I do have several copies of each; it is the least I can do for the world's most generous and prolific baker and writer and person!

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thanks for the link. i'll have to try some one of these days.

i'll let you know about the lemon layer cake. Anything chocolaty and lemoney are my favorite dessert types, and i am telling you this lemon layer cake is tops.

i went online and placed a reservation for the cake bible. according to hector, i might be able to get a used one from amazon for $5 or so. sounds extremely good especially with my current "unemployment" budget.

catch you later. glad to hear from you.

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I've been interested in that Cooks Illustrated recipe too. If you make it, let us know how it turns out!

Their white layer cake recipe seems to be based on Rose's, which is posted here: http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/recipes/RLB%27s%20White%20Velvet%20Cake.pdf

She does have recipes for Lemon Curd in both her Cake Bible and Pie and Pastry Bible -- why not check them out from your library sometime? It's a great way to see if you like a cookbook enough to buy it.

I don't know of a Rose recipe for a Seven-Minute Frosting, though. I wonder why...

By the way, there are some other recipes from Rose's books available here:
http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2007/02/the_missing_pbs_recipes.html

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sorry - i dont make a lot of cakes for dessert due to my diabetes and so, i dont have any cake cookbooks. what i have i've printed from epicurious and the food network. this ult lemon layer cake recipe was given to me by my girlfriend who recently baked it (and i fell in love with the cake).

if somebody will share the recipe, i'd like to try rose's recipe instead.

thanks for the notes. i'll print them when i get some overlays.

do you have any idea how diastatic malt powder will affect a recipe? i very much want to try a sourdough recipe for the panetonne (peter reinhart's). but his starter uses the malt powder and i cant get it anywhere locally (not within 2.5 hours drive anyways).

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excuse me? ultimate lemon layer cake from Cook's Illustrated? You meant from The Cake Bible right? =)

I've added my secret scribbles to the panettone recipe. To decipher, overlay them on TBB pages.

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/Panettone2006.html


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am looking to try this again - after Rose's sourdough focaccia (for the 4th of July party) and ultimate lemon layer cake from Cook's Illustrated (this one for my husband's birthday) - well, actually for both of ours seeing as we are about a week apart.

I figure i should be able to nail down the recipe so that come christmas time, i will have panetonne for christmas goodies give away instead of the usual xmas cookies.

We are having a bathroom remodeling and the carpenters and the tilesetters kept coming back to the kitchen to check how i was progressing with the panetonne. that sweet fragrance beckoned to them.

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Amy, I am so proud of you, and love the shaggy texture!!!!!!!!

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Panetonne has cooled down and we've cut 2 slices off it. It's got the shaggy texture, could be lighter but that's probably because it didn't rise as well as it should.

Will find a solution for the proofing problem, although it did rise better this time.

It could use be a little sweeter and I think next time, I will increase the corn syrup.

Other than all that - I am pleased with the result of this batch, knowing I am improving each time! Thanks you Hector and Matthew! Thanks Rose for the very detailed instruction - btw I weighed my ingredients this go round.

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for this one that i am doing right now - i am doing 2x - one for me and one for my best friend who loves panetonne just as much as i do.

i am using the panetonne paper molds.

anything in your recipe notes i can learn from?

i am at the making of the sponge with the dough stage and just started the rest period of 2 hours. it's 8:05 am - my time.

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hi amy, everything got multiplied, why are you making more than 1x? how big is your pan? i've just found my recipe notes, oh mine... the panettone pages of my BB look worn down!

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Hey! i know this is out of place, but i have a question and would like some advice. I have this great sour cream pound cake recipe and i would like to try and add some rose water to it as an interesting addition. Only i don't know how much to add. i was wondering if some one has worked with rose water before and could suggest a good amount to add. the recipe is for a bunt cake pan. Thanx.

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relating to your panetonne where you increased the recipe 6x - i am thinking of making one that is 3x. Curious - did you increase all the ingredients by 6x? or, was there an ingredient or two that you did not increase by 6x? will you please explain the reason for it.

i am going to bake the panetonne again today - just doubling it to play safe as Rose indicated in the cookbook that this is OK. We have a relatively warm weather today and am hoping that it will keep so that by tomorrow - i wont have any problem with the proofing.

sequim, wa is very small compared to pasco, wa. it also seems to be warmer than where we are.

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great amy! my mother always complained that I say to much! plus I love to write!

my brother lives in pasco wa.

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read your trials and tribulations when you started baking panetonnes. very useful.

from it, i gathered that you increased the ingredients 6x and divided it into individual portions before the 48 hours ripening period.

now to the area that i am having problem with: proofing. You have written out quite an explicit instruction which I can play with and modify given that I live in the State of Washington (been very cold lately). haven't changed out of thick warm pants and fleece jackets - and it's almost Summer. (poor lavender sellers at the Annual Lavender Festival - not much growing in that field).

In addition, I truly appreciate your methodology of setting the dough pans on a cooling rack. Makes great sense. Like I posted on my blog - my cold panetonne doughs didn't even get to the top of the paper mold.

BTW - the final product you were trying to accomplish is the same final product i am used to eating when i buy italian panetonnes.

thanks for sending me the link. will try to follow closely when i get the nerve to try again.

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just clicked on the link you've provided. looks like just the ticket for me. i downloaded it and will read.

thanks.

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Dear Amy, I have not much to say, except for something that may not be truly related to your challenge. And this is true for most all bread making. When making more than 1 recipe that later you will divide and bake in individual molds, you should divide your dough prior to the first rise and prior to any business letter folds, so each bread has its own texture. If you cut after, you will have an odd/uneven/non-whole texture. I hope this makes sense. It is during the rises and folds that you build your bread texture and shape.

I have not much more to say regarding your experience, but don't be discouraged. It is my absolute best favorite Italian sweet bread, and a crown you receive when achieved. You may want to read my earlier panettone posts:

http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2006/11/answering_questions.html#comment-15135

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the bread rose well; been baked and tasted. i love the complexity added to the taste by the sourdough starter.

great morning bread to go with coffee. i didn't add the evaporated milk. she didn't indicate quantity and it tasted great without it.

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glad you were able to get there. pls do me a favor - if you do try this recipe, would you please post your experience and results. love to learn from you. thanks so much.

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Hi Amy,

I clicked again and it did not come up. Maybe it's a Firefox thing. In any case I managed to get there by changing the slash after the www to a dot as in
www.wildyeastblog.com/2007/12/07/panetonne/

Thanks,

Janina

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Hector and Matthew - i am so sorry to let you know that my panetonne did not work out. After more than 3 hours of proofing - in my new proofing box and in the oven (I had 2 loaves) it didn't rise past the 2.5 ht of the paper mold.
So, I decided to finally put it in the oven as it was getting really late last night (took out the last loaf at 11:30pm).

When I took the dough out of the fridge, it was still nice and pillowy. I cut the dough in 2 using my bench knife and then formed 2 boules to put into the paper molds. It seemed OK up to that point. I don't think I deflated it during the process of cutting - visibly it seemd OK. But it just took the longest time to rise.

As a matter of fact, it looked to me as if the dough is softening (as in butter getting soft?). At this point, I was afraid that the butter content is melting but the dough still hasnt even filled the mold.

Would it have been if I divided the dough into 2 before I put it in the fridge overnight?

In addition, it seems as if my prior attempt was also tastier.

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Janina - i just clicked on that link and it worked. pls try again.

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Hi Amy,

The link to the wild yeast blog doesn't work as written.

Thanks,

Janina

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Amy, thanks for the link, I've reviewed the recipe last year, but again, nothing to report. The upside down hanging technique looks interesting.

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Matthew - i just put the raisin, cranberry pecan sourdough dough in my proofing box with the heating pad. we'll see how high the temp gets inside it.

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Melinda - put "cream cheese pie crust" into the search box up at the top of this thread and you will get the recipe.

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Matthew - sorry i forgot to add the link for the Raisin Walnut Cranberry Sourdough bread:

http://northwestsourdough.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/

Am on the bulk fermentation stage (7 hrs) right now to be followed by overnight refrigeration. I'll keep you posted on how this turns out.

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Hector - I used my electric oven without the light on and the temp went over 90 degrees.

Re: Sour Dough Panetonne - I googled this and here's a link to a recipe:
http://www/wildyeastblog.com/2007/12/07/panetonne/

Don't know how it'll turnout although supposedly this is a recipe adapted from the SFBI formula. This involves hanging the panetonne upside down.

If you try it, please let me know how it turns out.

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Amy, I have nothing to report yet re sourdough panetonne. I am using Bread Bible generic guidelines for sourdough conversion. The issue I had when I tried it once is that the panettone rose too slowly (more than 24 hours) but it can be due to this new flour I had tested.

I would say, yes, replace the sponge with an active starter freshly fed (a starter that has been refreshed a couple times at room temp).

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'sometimes' I just use my oven as proof box. Leave the oven light on, and that usually brings up the temperature to near 80. My oven has 2 lights. This for the nights when my weather is about 70!

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Matthew - thought i'd send this link on a Raisin Walnut Cranberry Sourdough bread. Figured I can substitute Pecan for Walnuts to make the Pecan-Raisin.
will let you know how it turns out.

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It doesn't have to fit in the proof box--that is just how I have mine set up. I think the only "rule" we might have here is not to post recipes under copyright without the author's permission, but I think any baking/cooking topic is certainly open.

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Thanks Matthew. My heating pad is sort of stiff and too long for my plastic box. I'll get something like you described. Thanks for describing the setup. Eliminates a lot of "re-inventing the wheel" on my end.

I decided to go ahead and bake a Raisin Pecan bread this weekend. I keep thinking about it so I thought I'd go ahead and make it. I'll do a Sourdough version though.

BTW - are we allowed to talk about recipes from other books here? I'm new to blogging and not sure about the rules. If I can[t talk about recipes from other books, is there another way to talk to you guys?

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If you use water, you need to refresh it every 1/2 hour or so--monitoring the temperature. The heating pad I use is designed for home use--it has 3 settings--I normally use low, although sometimes medium for short periods--but I monitor the temperature of the dough and try to get it around 80 degrees. I usually put a cooling rack in my proofing box, then heating pad with a dish towel on top, and then the dough container. I don't use water if I am using the pad. You could try your pad and see what temperature if brings your dough to--you can also test just by putting a container of water on it and checking the temperature after an hour.

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Matthew - wonder if you saw my posting on 6/5 4:11PM re: Proofing Box.

I tried the plastic box mentioned there along with the glass of hot water and it hardly raised the temp. Should I use the heating pad along with it?

I was also asking what kind of heating pad? Is it the kind used for medical purposes?

Pls let me know. Using the oven with the light on gets expensive and it also gets hotter than needed. The electric oven was turned off.

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Thanks you both.

Re: Sourdough Panetonne - do you use the same recipe and substitute the sponge with a sourdough starter? Any changes in the recipe? Do tell!

I have a sourdough starter going right now. And I love the combination of raisin pecan. I will try that next week.

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amy, although I have never birth a child, this feel like I will be delivering one soon! great expectations this weekend with your panettone, and thanks for sharing your daily basis.

next? making a panettone with sourdough starter instead of commercial yeast!

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Perhaps one of the fruit/nut breads like the raisin pecan--they are very delicious!

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Good News! The dough rose and doubled up. Had to baby sit the rising as the oven got too hot (90+).

Resultant dough has great elasticity. Cushiony as a down pillow. Spred out the raisins and citrons on the rect. dough, kneaded it a little and will now rest in the fridge for the next 24 hours.

Will be baking it on Saturday for Sunday breakfast. Am pretty sure this will turn out great. Will let you all know. I am so excited!

What would you recommend as a next project from the Bread Bible cookbook? Am ready!

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Hector - have you heard of "Performance Anxiety"? Just starting out on this venture which I feel I am on the right road, nonetheless - a "newbie" - I dare not send you any of my trial Panetonne's. You have done soooooooo many compared to my trial and error versions - you'd most likely be disappointed. And I don't even have that "fiori" stuff yet.

I'd love to send you some at one point so that you can critique my efforts and let me know if your efforts of guiding me had not been in vain.

Both you and Matthew are generous of your time with me and I feel I MUST produce a great product to make you both feel that your contribution in my panetonne baking was worth it.

BTW - I put the panetonne in the oven instead with a glass of hot water. We'll see how that goes.

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one thing: panettone and other enriched bread (high in butter, eggs, fruits) should be proofed in the best environment possible.

if proofing happens too long of time, the ingredients can spoil or separate. if proofing happens while too warm of environment, the same can happen.

58 degrees is too cold. Bread Bible points a suggested temperature on the panettone recipe.

can you mail me some panettone? i would love to try your trials!

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Matthew - I purchased a rectangular plastic see through storage at Walmart and am going to use that for my proofing box along with the glass of hot water.

However, your suggestion of a heating pad intrigues me - is the temperature conrollable on this pad or is it a one setting type? The reason I am asking is I purchased a seed warming pad (for germinating plant seeds) no temperature control - I wonder can I use this?

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You guessed it right. I just started baking bread about a month ago and been hooked. However, as I've mentioned. I've tried baking panetonne couple of years back with no luck. I am determined to do it right this time.

Volume - The last panetonne I did, I followed time (probably moot anyways seeing as I think I killed the yeast with the hot butter).

BTW - I browned my 2tbs of butter immediately after step 3 so that it'll have time to cooloff before step 4.

I'll have to do without the fiori until I place on order for it online.

Alright, alright - NO CRANBERRIES!

Will keep you posted.

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I need to add, and as encouragement and motivation to you, that I do make my own panettone, and my Italian people immediately fall in love with me when I say so or when they try my panettone. They think I am the baking God.

As a matter of fact, Luca's sister in law has my starter. Her father has a wood fired oven. And Luca's mother has learned how to make pizza dough from The Bread Bible! They live in northern Italy.

Do report back, and keep asking questions, it is almost like I am testing the recipe again, and learning a lot more!

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You wait until it doubles, and it will certainly take much longer at that temperature. You should try making a proofing box or using a heating pad to speed things along.

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Amy, I have the impression that you are starting your bread baking life with the most difficult bread. Panettone is difficult to make at home. In Italy, NO-ONE does it at home!

your flour is the same I used for the first 30 panettones, I think until I ran out from the 25lb bag.

lecithin has a preservative effect, as traditionally you keep panettone for months (airtight). Lecithin also has a emulsifying effect, but actually it would be undesirable in panettone (but desirable in cake baking). I would omit. I've only used the granular kind.

re: the longer fridge storage. YES. the bread/yeast flavor increases which is desirable, plus the raisins has a chance to release more sugar and soften.

YOU NEED fiori di sicilia, it is also known as panettone essence. The closest thing would be a few drops of strong orange essence or oil on vanilla extract.

I have never found panettone with cranberries in Italy!!!

On my 6qt KA mixer, I can knead 6x up to the butter addition, after that I use a large bowl and by hand. I would recomend only 2 or 3x on this mixer so you don't burn the gears as i did.

I ALWAYS follow volume, not hours. But hours is just a more or less guide. 58 vs 80 degrees will mean a lot of more or less hours until volume has reached.

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also - when the recipe says a certain number of hours or till the dough doubles - do you follow the number of hours or wait till it doubles?

i might mention that right now, we are at 58 degrees inside the house.

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i wanted to double the recipe because i wanted to have an extra loaf (because we demolished 1 loaf in 1 day). also, because in my last try it didn't rise more than the 2.5 ht of the mold I thought I'd just plan on having extra for the just in case.

I am using King Arthur Unbleached All Purpose flour.

Have you ever tried Liquid Lecithin vs the Granular kind? I have the liquid variety and I'd like to try it. Don't know what effect in means to add lecithin.

By the way, did you notice a marked difference in terms of flavor if you allowed the sponge to ferment for 8 to 24 hours in the fridge?

Have you tried using cranberries for the filling?

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I haven't found any issues when making 2x, even 6x. So, go ahead and double as one batch.

Why do you want to double? What is the size of your pan?

On these pictures, the first panettone baked on parchment was a 3x, the mold I used was a Lodge 5qt Dutch Oven. I sprayed with oil the pot, then lined it with parchment (bottom disc and side strip), then did the final rise of the dough on it with the pot lid on. It rose near touching the lid. Then I baked it on preheated tile (pizza stone). Amazingly, the panettone did not get an overly dark crust, characteristic of baking on cast iron, must be due the parchment protection.

The second pictured panettone was made with only 1x recipe, and the paper pan was 6" x 4.5" tall.

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/Panettone2006.html

Both panettones were feathery stretchy, which is my ideal texture for panettone. The one baked on the dutch oven was denser because actually the capacity is slightly more than double recipe, not triple.

What flour are you using? I have used unbleached all purposed from a national well known brand. I have also used bleached bread flour from a local less known brand, available from wholesale stores. I think the ideal panettone flour should be a bread flour that is not to high in protein.

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Matthew - thanks. I dont have access to the fiori so that's not an issue for me. And I am using a stand mixer so I know I can handle doubling the recipe.

So, from your answer I got that there is no complications in doubling the recipe? (other than the mixer part).

Thanks. So glad there is somebody out there at this time to answer my question. Thanks again.

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I recommended to cut the fiori in half, although I have made a 1.5 times batch, but I am working by hand, so it is not really an issue. I'm not sure how much you can make with a stand mixer--Hector would know.

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Hector -
OK, I am ready to try the Panetonne again! So question for you is - when you recommended to Matthew to double the Panetonne recipe - does that mean I can just double all the ingredients and process them as one or do I have to make 2 separate batches and combine them at one point?

Some recipes you can't double, you have to make 2 batches and I want to succeed this time so I'm proceeding with caution.

Thanks!

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ohh, forgot to answer, no cut on any of the 40 I made!

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Thanks. Better luck next time, so they say. I'm not giving up. Love Panetonne and lack of availability in my area causes me to persist!

Hector, did you make a cut at the top of your panetonne? Cant make out from the picture.

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Amy, I am so sorry you have to go thru this. But I assure you that there is no-better panettone than home-made, and perfected by yourself thru practice.

Matthew has spoken, and I validate his answers. I don't think Rose will add any more to this.

Truly, gentle and delicate dough, temperature sensitive, kneading sensitive, but worth the effort and practice even if that could mean going thru 40 panettones and 2 mixers!

I think panettone is one of those breads that you need to adapt the recipe to your home conditions according to experimentation, really, I haven't have to repeat 40 times to any of Rose's recipes to achieve perfection.

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The only correction I am aware of is cutting the fiori in half--and that is really a matter of taste. In general, you should never put anything hot into a yeast dough as you risk killing the yeast. It is possible you let it over rise as bread defaltes more easily when it has risen too much--although this is a very fragile dough to begin with, and I have to admit I don't slash it for this reason. Slashing is usually a matter of aesthetics and not absolutely necessary.

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Rose - I noticed a couple of times when you've indicated that there were items left out in the cookbook and you make corrections. I wonder - where there any corrections to the Panetonne recipe that I should know about?

Also, when you indicated to brown the 2 tbs of butter - was I supposed to let that cool before adding with the rest of the butter?

Have you any experience with the Bosch Universal Plus? Could I have used the wrong settings causing my panetonne to barely rise?

After chilling the dough overnight, and forming it into a ball, transferring to the mold - I let it sit for 2.5 hours. It stopped rising altogether so I decided to go ahead and bake it in a preheated oven at 325 for 60 min.

Pls read post to Hector where I indicated that right after I made the cross at the top of the dough that it deflated some.

Just looking at where and how I went wrong.

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panetonne is done and cooled. didn't even rise up to the 2.5" high paper mold. taste good (could a little more sweetness) and texture is OK, but definitely not feathery and stretchy.

i followed the business letter turns. when i placed it on the paper mold, it was about an 1/8" below the mold. let it sit for 5 min and then made the criss cross cut. i noticed that it deflated immediately.

watching thru the oven window, i saw that it went thru the oven spring below the 2.5 mold ht) and no more.

don't know what went wrong or rather what i did wrong. up to the step #7, i thought it was rising good and has great elasticity.

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Amy, I wouldn't worry too much at this point about the hot butter, but please next time you must follow the recipe to the fine details.

Lucky you have a Bosch, I think it is ok to over mix, be careful not to overheat the dough as it can kill the yeast.

Wrap securely and buldging is expected. The reason for this is to prevent the dough to over expand, in fact the least it expands in the fridge the best. Over expanding would waste too much gluten strands that later you want to keep for your final rise on the panettone pan instead.

Go for it, I love wide panettone rather than taller ones. I wouldn't use a collar, instead save some dough to make a cupcake or such. Most wide panettones I see, has been risen pass twice the pan! I think there is a picture above of one I bought.

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/PanettoneNM.html

Good luck, I want some panettone in June!

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Started the Panetonne last night. Couple of questions: Rose had indicated in the Pointers for Success to melt and brown 2 tbs of the butter. Are we supposed to let the butter cool down? Might have been a good interpretation that I unfortunately didn't do and hope that it doesn't affect the rising of the dough.

I have a Bosch Universal Plus. Any recommendation on the Speed Settings?
I used 1, increased to 2 and then went to 3 because the butter wasn't getting incorporated well. I wonder if this is too high.

Am anxious to see what my final product will be tomorrow. Thanks.

In addition, for step 7 (where I am at right now in the process) - "wrap the dough loosely but securely" - I wrapped the dough as instructed in an oiled plastic wrap - however, in checking the dough in the fridge, it is buldging and rising. Should I loosen the wrap to give it room to rise?

BTW - I found some panetonne paper molds which is 6" wide x 2.5" tall. Is this too wide? It is unfortunately, too late for me to double up on the recipe for tomorrows' baking. I know that I would have to do a collar around for the rising (just in case it gets taller).

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I organized a large family xmas party and each took one home. I told them, these were all mistake panettones. The best ones were cut and served and shared during the party and also I got some flown in from Italy. If it comes out good, home made is SUPERIOR to anything money can buy.

I still remember, specially when looking at my photo album that my relatives were confused because of my KitchenAid mixer colors. Red the year prior, White this year, and Green after the new year arrived. Now I know to never exceed the mixers rated capacity.

Oh, I am not trying to give you bad results, but bad panettone makes the best bread puddings! I still have some saved in the freezer.

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Hector - thanks to all the feedback re: Panetonne. Will let you know how it turns out. 40 Panetonnes - weren't you sick of it by the 20th one? And my friends call me tenacious! They havent heard of you and your Panetonne yet.

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Amy, you need to know, that somewhere in the recipe, some procedure will determine the texture on your panettone.

I don't have my scribbles with me now, but I am certain if you are not careful doing the business letter turns or if you overknead or overrise at warm weather, you won't get the wonderful texture of panettone: which should be feathery and stretchy. Instead, you end up with a cake texture. THIS is the reason why I made 40 panettones in 2006 and THAT launched my name on this blog!

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oh Amy, and I am glad you got The Bread Bible, and it is ok to totally blame that purchase on me!

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Hi Amy, btw, I've just looked at my big panettone picture above, and got a little sad that I no longer have the glass plate in the picture, under the sugar beaker. I cracked it by total accident. It is a Murano piece I picked myself in Venice! The colors on the plate determined the colors of my kitchen (yellow with some blue).

ok, answering your question. No, never grease your paper mold in your panettone, parchment or paper mold. An ungreased surface helps the panettone climb up and stay up. Panettone has so much butter in the dough that normally it doesn't stick neither.

Oh, one more thing, cut in half the amount of fiori di sicilia, in the recipe. It is a recommendation I deduced and indeed discussed with Rose. This essence is vital for that typical panettone flavor ok?

One last thing. I prefer to keep my panettone airtight for 1 week prior to eating it, the flavor improves.

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HECTOR:
12/27/06 That is the date I first asked the question on Panetonne on this blog.

And you told me about the Bread Bible and that's how I come to owning this book. Now as you say, Hector, "go for it". I will try this recipe this weekend.

BTW - do you grease the parchment paper before putting the dough on it?

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Go for it Amy. I replace the chestnuts with equal weight of raisins. On top of that, I have doubled the amount of raisins and citron, too. Citron is my preference instead of colored candied fruit. Normally, I use blond raisins for baking so they don't burn, but for panettone I do prefer regular black raisins!

I have never baked on a coffee can. Try get the paper molds, much worthy. The main picture above was baked on a 5 quart heavy cast iron pot, lined with parchment.

Rose's recipe doesn't require to cool the panettone upside down, but most other recipes does so that may help prevent your sunken centers. Try an angel food tube pan, I don't see why it wouldn't work and so easy to cool upside down.

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Hector-On 2 separate Christmass occasions, I tried my hand on Panetonne and ended up with bricks. And wasted a lot of eggs, butter etc given that I tried more than 10 times during those 2 Christmasses. You see I love Panetonne and its not locally available where I live.
I've since then purchased the Bread Bible but Christmas is over so I thought I'd wait till next Christmas.
But looking at your Panetonne and various posts, I am motivated to try again. However, I am not fond of chestnut and would rather have the citrons and raisin or even cranberies. What would your recommendation be in terms of quantity substitution.
I saved a couple of 2 lb coffee cans for the purpose of baking panetonne (as per suggestion on a couple of recipes). Do you think that extra height affects its cooking time? The ones I baked rose beautifully but right after taking it out of the oven, it fell down like a souffle and like I said, they were hard as bricks.
When the panetonne comes out of the oven. would you recommend letting it cool in the can or take it out of the can as soon as it comes out of the oven? Thanks. I might have a successful panetonne yet.

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Thanks Matthew. Luca noted from Alton Brown that one reason of the business letter turns is to redistribute the air pockets during the final shaping, thus more even holes and everywhere. Luca is very careful with holes, even when called to "punch down" he tries not to deflate them.

We use Gold Medal Bread Flour (aka King Harvest Better for Bread, unbleached). I highly recommend this flour, as for bread making: flour is the #1 factor of variance in results.

The baguette pan is sized for home ovens, about half the length as the "real" baguette pan. Chicago Metallic. What you see is only one (1) recipe of Basic Heart Bread Sourdough'd.

Amy, definitely take Matthew's advise to start by making the recipe as written, to get a good guide of what things should be. Matthew is really good on duplicating exactly baked goods as written by Rose!

Also, enriched breads, with fruits or eggs, are tricky to do with sourdough. The sourdough fermentation is much longer, so these fruits and eggs may spoil or become acid too soon. If the bread has butter, the butter can separate, too, specially during a warm rising time.

I've tried Panettone with sourdough last year, but have no spectacular results to report. Panettone is one of the most enriched breads, and I am determined to sourdough conquer it... before the appearance of commercial yeast, Panettone was done with sourdough starter, and in fact all other breads, too!

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Btw, looks like the baguettes turned out great with nice holes in the crumb!

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Yes Amy, sourdough is not an exact substitute for a sponge, biga, etc. They all function differently, but I didn't mean my response as a negative to keep you from trying. Just wanted to point out that Rose's recipes are formulated for the specific preferment, so you will have to experiment to see what will work. You might come out with something even better!

Hector has done quite a lot of sourdough experimentation with good results and success. If you are just looking to reproduce the bread as written, however, try the original recipe first, then you will have that as a baseline for future tests. I have to say though, that making a sponge (basically you are just premixing a part of the recipe) is easier than working with a starter. I think it is the easiest and simplest preferment to execute.

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Amy, Matthew is correct. Replacing all or part of the biga with sourdough starter is only the beginning of your experiment.

The general main advise is to calculate how much flour and water is in your starter and delete these amounts from the biga. Be aware that you need to replace by weight or by mixed volume. 1 cup flour plus 1 cup water won't be 2 cups of dough, it will be less as the flour kneads into the water, try measure the volume of it after kneading.

I would just start experimenting. Seems that you have The Bread Bible, the answers are there to get you "started."

Here is a picture of "baguette" that Luca made and w/ sourdough. He used the Basic Heart Bread recipe with sourdough substitution on a baguette pan!

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/BasicHeartBreadSourdoughBaguette.html

The acid on sourdough weakens the flour protein giving you moister bread, but if you are careful on feeding times, kneading, using a good bread flour, and good oven ventilation or baking on tiles, then the bread won't turn too moist.

Sourdough also makes your crust soft on the next day. Sourdough also extends the shelf life of your bread (keeps moist and the acid is a preservative).

But by all means, don't take the above as problems, they are advantages you can use to make any non-sourdough bread taste incredibly better than anything else!

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Guess what you're saying is get with the program and follow the recipe. Having the sourdough starter in the fridge, seemed like I was duplicating the process of getting a dough starter.

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If you want to do a rough substitution, then, as Hector says, calculating the flour and moisture content are the most important considerations.

However, using sourdough as a substitute is not going to be a functional equivalent in these recipes--in other words, sourdough will behave differently and result in breads that are different from the originals recipes--both in flavor and technique (how much time will be needed for rises, etc.).

I don't know a lot about the science behind preferments, but for example in the baguette recipe, I believe you make two starters because they each have different functions--producing different levels of acid, resulting in different flavors and textures in the finished bread.

I guess my main point is that all of these different starters and preferment categories in the bread bible are responsible for the wide-variety of bread flavors and textures represented. You are essentially creating new recipes inspired by the bread bible models if you want to substitute starter, so you likely will have to do a few rounds of experimentation to see what works.

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And in a recipe calling for Pate Fermente and Poolish - as in the recipe for Baguettes, can that be replaced by the sourdough starter as well? and again, how to measure quantity to replace? Dont know if I'm making sense or trying to make 2+2 come to 16.

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Hector - OK, I'm looking at the Raisin Pecan bread recipe on page 404. It has a Sponge recipe that calls for flour, yeast, water, etc.
Now, my sourdough recipe has been going on for quite a while and so all I know of it is that when I replenish it, I add 1 cup each of water and flour.
How would I go about the subtitution?
The sponge recipe on pg 405 has 1 c each of flour and water. Do I then substitute 2 cups starter for it? HELP!

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Amy, the answer is on The Bread Bible.

Meassure how many grams of flour and water are in your starter, and subtract these from the biga. If the starter is freshly fed and wait until most active, I would replace 100% of the biga with starter. If the starter is a week old or not as active, I would replace less % of the biga, add more flour and water to make up the biga in your recipe and wait until the starter has become active.

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guess i hit the wrong button - anyway i was talking about poolish, biga etc as it relates to sourdough. when these items are mentioned in a recipe, can i use my sourdough starter? and if Yes, how do i calculate the substitution because often times the recipe will say use all of the biga, poolish, sponge that they've written down on the recipe.
i'd really appreciate if you can help me out. thanks.

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no--don't bake them more as they will dry out. they always wrinkle (as hector agreed)! actually this makes a nice effect when filled and rolled.

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Cindy, my Biscuit de Savoie wrinkles, too!

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I find the top of my Biscuit du savoie wrinkle as well on cooling. Does it mean I need to bake it longer still?

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Thank you! I'll try hanging it upside down next time.

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Mila, you could bake it a little longer, otherwise wrinkle tops is a characteristic of panettones.

You could try cooling them upside down, too. Insert a few bamboo skewers on the bottom, larger than the pan diameter and hang upside down between 2 tables or chairs.

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Help!!!
My Panettones got wrinkles on top while cooling. What can cause it? Not enough flour? It baked perfectly (in paper molds), i took it out and placed on a cooling rack. In half an hour it's "crust" became wrinkled. The top didn't fall down (or sunk?), just wrinkles.

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Rose's recipe fits perfect on the 6" x 4 1/2" tall paper molds, most commonly available in the USA, imported from Italy.

If the mold is slightly smaller, like your 5 1/4 inch diameter, the recipe would fit too, as panettone is able to rise and hold itself way above the paper mold.

The largest multiple I've done with my 6 at mixer, is a 6x batch. But I warn you that it causes a lot of strain on your mixer and indeed burned my mixer after pulling the 30th panettone. I would suggest doing the final mixing by hand in a large bowl.

Try to reduce the amount of fiori di sicilia in half, as Rose's recipe is on the strong side for this which often imparts a bitter taste.

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Hi Rose!
I need your advise on Panettone and paper molds. If i need to bake it in two-three 5 1/4 inch paper molds how many times it would be better to multiply the recipe?
After making it 2 weeks ago ("the ultimate full flavor version") i can't stop thinking of it, this is such a perfect sweet bread!
Thank you!

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ValerieSara
ValerieSara
03/ 8/2008 09:48 AM


Hi Rose,
I apologize for posting this previously on the wrong page. I just realized I should have posted my Panettone post here. So here goes again!
I love The Bread Bible (third edition) and appreciate your attention to detail. For months, I've been experimenting with recipes for Panettone and my husband and four children agree with me that yours is the closest to the best Italian brands that we've grown up with as full-blooded Italians.
We prefer the traditional fruit mix to the chestnuts and we also prefer a sweeter bread.
MY QUESTION: I read in the Bible that I may substitute other dried fruit for the chestnuts, but can I replace sugar for the syrup? I used light corn syrup (Karo) in your recipe because I cannot find the one you suggest. In your similar Basic Brioche recipe you do use sugar, but I'm afraid that amount would still be a little less sweet than we would like. I use "SAF" Gold Yeast which will help boost the rise with the extra sugar. Do I add the sugar as I would the syrup in the starter? Do I add the sugar along with the flour and yeast in the dough? Up to what amount of sugar can I safely use in this wonderful recipe? And finally, would a particular type of honey work in this recipe, if sugar would not? I greatly appreciate any help/suggestions you can give me. Thank you, Rose!
ValerieSara

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It is seldom once in a decade or two, that I can buy GOOD panettone where I live. Here it is. The taste, the taste, the taste! Imported from Italy by the Di Camillo family in New York. I've just had to share with you, since 5 slices reside in me!

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/PanettoneNM.html

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Matthew, in my opinion, a panettone looks grand when it is bigger than the mold! I've seen such rise where the mold is near half the height of the panettone dome!

Double your recipe, and fill 1.3 on your 'bigger mold', the other 0.7 can make wonderful mini panettones on large cupcake liners. Or.... make a 4x recipe and bake 3!

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I was in Sur La Table tonight and I saw paper Panettone molds, so I bought one since they are so inexpensive. Looking at the recipe now, the mold is actually slightly larger--1/2 inch wider and 1/4 inch taller--than what the recipe calls for. I'm guessing it should still be okay, but does anyone think this is a large enough difference to increase the recipe slightly?

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ok, personal non-baking message here, read if you wish:

Bill, these panettones were done in Fall 2006. And this is how I discovered Rose's blog, and how Rose discovered me! Since then my life has taken off, to the oven that is...

I don't know where I find the time, but I know where I find the energy. I feel I have a responsibility to bake and share 'all the time.' I've spent the most grueling Monday last night baking seven 9-inch golden genoise. It was very stressing and tiring specially during the staging process (setting up the utensils, ingredients, measuring, cracking eggs, etc), but the minute the batter was whipping or things were in the oven I felt an energy rush (much needed). But the limit was reached when I was planning a 1500 gr batch Mousseline Buttercream, I gave up that joy for tonight instead, since I am not Superman (perhaps it is time to get a third mixer?). These genoise will be towered to make a 9 x 14 cylinder, a well deserved seat for Dora The Explorer... upcoming. I got carried away (more than usual) because my friend/client paid me in advance and gave me huge tip!

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hector-you are rising to ever new and greater heights!

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Hector:
You are amazing! Where do you find the time? (Or do you bake for a living?)

Bill

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either double the panettone paper or set it in a pan for extra support.
baking soda can react with the natural acidity in flour.

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Rose, i've made your pannetone following the Bread Bible recipe and it became slightly oblong in shape while baked in paper molds. What can be done to avoid it?

I also have a question re: your Filbertines cookies which i love most of all. The recipe calls for baking soda but there seems to be nothing to interact with it. Is it really soda or i'd better use baking powder?

I have so many thanks for your recipes from all of your books!

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most "tricks" in commercial products mean the addition of chemical products not available and usually not desirable!
as you can see from the photo in the book, the crumpets do have holes--just not like commercial ones. i can't say why yours didn't. you could even try the no knead method which means no beating--just stirring and letting it rise for 18 hours.i bet that would work--it would have to.

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The crumpets I got had a fine crumb and smooth texture with no holes at all. There might have been a few dimples on the second surface, but that was it. Flavor was good, though. The family devoured them.

Do commercial crumpet makers have special tricks to get all the holes?

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i never thought to compare the crumpets to the foccacia and i'm amazed to see that the foccacia is 2 1/2 times the recipe--almost identical! why not try baking them as crumpets!
the no knead bread has a honey comb of holes so i don't think it's the lack of mixing but there may be other factors involved.
flour has enough acidity to react with the baking soda. i found that the egg white gave more holes but i never achieved the holes of commercial crumpets--though of course the flavor was superior.

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Just thought I'd report back on the crumpets.

I made a batch with gold medal unbleached flour and a batch with whole grain spelt flour this weekend.

I followed the substitution in the book to replace the water with scalded milk. I added 3/8 cup additional milk over the amount specified. The white wheat batter was full of holes when it was time to cook them. I cooked one as is and then stirred in a beaten egg white to the remaining batter and cooked the rest with egg white. (It seemed a shame to deflate the batter to stir in the egg.) The batter was thick but pourable.

The result was that none of the crumpets had the expected holes. There actually was very little difference between the ones with egg white and the ones without egg white.

I prepared the whole grain batch in the same fashion with very similar results. I actually used a bit less liquid but nevertheless got a pourable batter. This batter didn't rise as high in the bowl and wasn't as obviously air filled, but after baking the texture of the two batches was not much different.

I can only guess that the lack of holes must have to do with insufficient beating of the dough. (When I made the Rosemary Foccacia the recipe said to beat for 20 minutes but I found I had to do it for 30. Maybe that's a clue.)

What is the source of the acid to neutralize the baking soda in this recipe?

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yes--it's the one hector made and it's in my book: the bread bible.

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Rose do you have the recipe for the panettone? It looks great and would love to make it.

Thank you

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I have had much success with the Bread Bible panettone recipe. I also make it for Easter in the form of a Colomba Pasquale.

I make this recipe so often, that I am now the proud owner of 200 panettone molds that I procured from a bakery supply store. It was cheaper to buy 200 from them than 25 from a typical retail store.

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Margaret G. Cope
Margaret G. Cope
01/17/2007 07:25 PM

I just read your scenario regarding the No Knead Bread. I have had wonderful success using a Silpat instead of a floured towel...and covering it with one of the Anchor Hocking Glass Bowls I purchased for $2.00 each. My bread looks essentially like yours baking it for the 30 minutes covered and 30 uncovered and it is the best thing since "sliced bread". The crumb looks like yours and the crust is wonderful. Adding blue cheese and walnuts is also great. And I have spread the "gospel" to friends around here in northern NH who bake bread but don't read the NYTimes.

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fran, it's in my book "the bread bible"

tanya, my biscuit recipes have the hard cooked egg yolk too--they provide a velvety texture.

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Tanya Melloul
Tanya Melloul
01/17/2007 04:52 PM

Dear Rose,
Today I baked cookies that required me to use hard boiled egg yokes instead of raw eggs. What would the purpose of a hard boiled egg yoke do in a recipe. Look forward to your response.
Tanya Melloul

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Fran Flamini
Fran Flamini
01/17/2007 02:31 PM

Rose,
How can I get a copy of your recipe for
panettone? Thanks, Fran.

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I've tried the crumpet recipe from the Bread Bible twice now and I'm evidently doing something wrong because the dough that emerges is a sticky, mass, not something that I could pour into rings. Not even close. In fact, I cooked some of it on the griddle without rings and I had to actually press it down and try to spread it to keep them from being two inches thick.

I'm replacing the water with scalded milk and skipping the dried milk. I measured the flour by weight and used gold medal unbleached. The last time I tried adding the minimum amount of water to the batter to get something somewhat pourable but I still didn't get the expected pattern of holes that I expected.

So my question is should I just keep adding water until I get something I can pour? What is the proper texture for this batter? I would guess that I might have to increase the liquid a lot, like by 50% or more to get a really pourable texture.

I'm also curious about the idea of making crumpets out of 100% whole grain flour (wheat, kamut or spelt). Is there any reason this wouldn't work? Is there any general approach to follow if I want to adapt a recipe for 100% whole grain flour? Any limitations? Could the rosemary foccacia from the Bread Bible (with the 20 minute beating time) be made to work, for example?

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Hector Wong
Hector Wong
12/27/2006 05:21 PM

Dear Amy Young Hall, I have been using Rose's recipe of panettone. Page 511 of the Bread Bible.

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Amy Young Hall
Amy Young Hall
12/27/2006 04:52 PM

I had tried various recipes of Panetonne last year and 2xs this past Christmas. All ended up not rising.

Wonder if Hector would be willing to share his recipe and tips on how to make my Panetonne work.

I love this bread and am desperate to find a recipe that works along with tips for a beginner yeast bread baker.

This is the first bread I've ever tried using yeast (I've primarily done quick breads).

Thank you so much.

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Hector Wong
Hector Wong
12/26/2006 08:22 PM

I've read these comments. Let me share with you that anyone should look into the special panettone paper pans. They are inexpensive and so very handy and a lot cleaner and easier to use than lining a regular pan with parchment.

Regarding bread flour. I've tried (bleached bread flour from Costco), and it came out heavier as Rose states, denser. But I loved it.

Regarding pound cake texture. I had that happen in many ocassions from my 30 panettone trial run using exclusivelly Rose's recipe. What I think makes the pound cake texture vs panettone texture (feathery, fluffy) is the folding and rising. Follow religiously the business letter folds in Rose's recipe, and be sure to do these only when your dough is fairly cool (refrigerated after 1 hour or so). You can't do the business letter folds when the dough is warm, the high butter content too warm will just collapse the dough. You can't do the business letter folds when the dough is too cold neither because you will need to press harder with your rolling pin thus smashing the air bubbles. At one point of Rose's recipe, it says "keep as much air as possible..."

Regarding rising, it is also critical. Proof in the upper 70s but not over 80. Bellow 75 is too cold!!! If it is too cold it will take too many hours to rise, and it may not even rise high enough. I would say that your panettone should reach the desired rise after 3 hours, but not longer than that. If it takes too long to rise, the texture will be compromised (the butter can start to separate). On the other hand, if it over rises or it is over 80 degrees, the fat will separate and the dough will collapse once it is baking. Sure thing, I had this happen.

One last recommendation (and my sister just called me saying that she tasted too strong the fiori di sicilia, a chemical taste she said) is to cut in half the amount of fiori di sicilia in Rose's Recipe.

Good luck, all 30 panettones I made this month went away after having my family's Xmas reunion. They were trilled to see home-made panettone, in spite of that some looked very "test lab" like.

Rose says "this is sure a recipe you don't want to miss"

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the dough needs the support of a pan or paper mold which is carried by la cuisine in alexandria--800 toll free #.
pls do a search on this blog for my thermometer recommendations. and yes--an instant one.

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Do you need a special pan for Panetone? Can you just use parchment? Do you need a specific kind?

Also, what brand of bread thermometer do you recommend, an instant read one?

Thanks!!

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thanks for the report--now you must "get right back on the bicycle" and make another one asap. once i did it as a demo and didn't have time to chill it but it was very cold int he room and actually hardly shrank. still--better not to risk it! so happy for you re the kitchen aid--you certainly deserve it! happy holidays!

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Melinda Pickworth
Melinda Pickworth
12/25/2006 03:45 PM

The pie crust result: Very easy to put together. Tried different method to get it all together. I put all in large zip lock bag and shaped it easily together from the outside of the bag. It worked well.
The pastry rolled out beautifully. Now for my error... I was so busy with my 3 ring circus in the kitchen, I put the pastry with pie beans straight into the oven without rechilling. I realized this mistake 5 mins too late; the crust had shrunk down even with the beans in place. The crust was salvagable but far from perfect. Sorry, Rose...I made a beginners error. So it was not so flaky as much as it was 'Shrinky'. I will do better next time.
I had a lovely Christmas. (Father Christmas brought a Nickel KitchenAid! Surprise! I can't wait to use it.)
Cheers and Merry Christmas. Melinda P.

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bread flour doesn't have the extensibility of all purpose so it would be more dense. do feed the garbage can or better still a neighbor and try mine! happy holidays!

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Hi Rose,

I've made several Panettone over the last two weeks with different self-claimed 'authentic' recipes, but they all turned out like pound cakes! After seeing all those posts about wonderful results from your recipe, I took a quick look at your recipe, and I think it may be because my dough wasn't hydrated enough. Or is it because it hasn't proofed enough? Do you have any idea as to why it came out that way?

Also, do you think that bread flour would yield fluffier results? Is there a specific reason why Panettone uses all-purpose flour?

I'm definitely going to try out your recipe once I finish the relatively edible loaf of Panettone I made today - who knows, if I get impatient, maybe it'll just *mysteriously* disappear into the garbage can!

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Melinda Pickworth
Melinda Pickworth
12/22/2006 11:38 AM

certainly...but I am sure it will be yummy if I do it right. Melinda

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let me know how you like it!

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Melinda Pickworth
Melinda Pickworth
12/22/2006 10:35 AM

Thank you Rose. I honestly didn't think it was on the blog. Sorry, I will search better next time. Melinda

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actually it's rose's favorite flaky pie crust but apparently even one word like flaky will lead you in the right direction.

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here's the url. all you have to do next time is what i just did: put what you're looking for in the search box nad hope it's there before asking! if this link doesn't work and it's not an active one--you have to cut and paste--put the words rose's flaky pie crust in the search box and voila!

www.realbakingwithrose.com/2005/10/roses_favorite_flaky_tender_pi.html

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Melinda Pickworth
Melinda Pickworth
12/22/2006 03:07 AM

Doesn't that look wonderful! Hector, very nice and well done!
Rose...I have a very cheeky request.I don't have your pie and pastry book yet. (Darn it!) I looked in Oxford Book shops and was unable to get it before Christmas so think I will have to have to Amazon it after Christmas time. I was wonderering if there is any chance you would give me your cream cheese pie crust recipe you say is so good and that you say to substitute with heavy cream now. I will understand if you are not willing to give it away on the web, but this is the cheeky part, that I had to ask/try. ( Because I didn't get my Pumpkin Pie craving fulfilled, due to no Thanksgiving in England, I am making my pie for Christmas and would like to try your crust with it.) Wishing you all the Best for 2007. Cheers, Melinda P.

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