No Knead Bread Nirvana Conclusions

Dec 16, 2006 | From the kitchen of Rose

Bread #10 is coming up on Monday but I can't wait any longer to post my findings so I will post again soon after my final test. I plan to try my new Lodge 5 quart enameled cast iron Dutch oven which I strongly anticipate to be the ultimate baking container for this bread. And because it will limit the sideways spread of the dough, I am able to try increasing the hydration of the dough to 80%--close to my ciabatta--to have even more open holes in the bread. Meantime here are my findings and tips to date:

Pros: Speed of mixing, flexibility to fit into your time schedule, excellent texture and good flavor. Baking in a preheated Dutch oven is ideal for those who don’t have baking stones.

Cons: Decreased shelf life, less flavor dimension.

My Favorite Container for Baking this Bread
Baking the bread on a baking stone with steam (see below) results in a 9 inch by 3-1/2 high loaf but using a 5 quart enameled cast iron or seasoned cast iron Dutch oven results in 7-1/2 inch by almost 4 inch high loaf which is my preference. In a larger Dutch oven the bread will be the same size as on a baking stone.

Steam
If not using a Dutch oven:
Using the steamer together with the steamer lid (see below) resulted in the shiniest crust, best color, thinnest most crisp crust, and most chewy crust and crumb.
The steamer is also very effective if using an oven stone without the lid and cracking open the oven door just enough to insert the nozzle and steam the oven for about 1 minute.
A hand-full of ice cubes, tossed into a preheated cast iron pan set on the floor of the oven is the next best thing to the steamer. Though not as effective as the steamer it is much better than spritzing which causes the oven temperature to fall a good (actually I mean BAD) 25˚F every time the oven door is opened.

Additions
I find that using 100% white wheat flour results in the largest holes. 7-1/2% whole wheat flour closes the holes somewhat but adds lovely flavor. When I add whole wheat flour I use 1/2 tablespoon more water (total 360 grams).

Tips
Use your fingers to mix the dough, reaching to the bottom to ensure that all the flour particles get moistened, without overworking the dough.

I’ve stuck to the 18 hour first rise at 70˚F/22˚C. and 2 hour shaped rise at 80˚/26˚C. I’ve found in general that a warmer shaped rise results in a more open crumb. The dough is ready to bake when you poke it gently with your fingertip and it fills in slowly. I’ve found it to be consistently 8 inches by almost 2-1/2 inches in size at this point.

To keep the sticky dough from sticking to the towel, it’s best to use a coarse-weave towel and bran. Flour absorbs too much into the dough.

To avoid bran flying all over the kitchen, brush any excess from the towel. The top of the dough should feel slightly dry but if not, dust it with a little flour. Use the towel to invert the dough onto the counter and with floured hands, lift the dough and gently lower it into the pot, being very careful to avoid touching the hot sides.

In my oven, I bake the bread at 450˚F/230˚C. for 20 minutes. Then without the lid for 10 minutes. To keep the bottom from over-browning I set the bread on a baking sheet and return it to the oven for 5 minutes with the door propped partially ajar. (This allows moisture to escape and helps to keep the crust crisp.)

My (Almost) Final Recipe Weights and Volume
Harvest King flour or half unbleached all-purpose half bread flour:
468 grams (about 3 cups)
room temperature water: 354 grams, 1-1/2 cups (I’m trying 382 grams/1-
2/3 cups water for an 80% hydration in my new Lodge enameled cast
iron Dutch oven next)
instant yeast: 0.8 grams/1/4 teaspoon
salt: 10 grams/1-2/3 teaspoons

The New Steamer
I adore this steaming device for rustic loaves not baked in a Dutch oven, and use it in my Wolf oven with oven stone in place and without the lid. But in my country Gaggenau I’ll use it with the accompanying lid because even when not set on convection the fan vents out the air and moisture along with it. (Moisture is vital during the first 10 minutes of bread baking for the best crust and crumb.)
Check out: http://info@steambreadmaker.com

Morgana
01/04/2009 09:27 AM

i find that, after letting the dough rise first in the bowl for 18-24 hours, letting it rise the second time on a bran dusted sheet of parchment paper works great. When the time comes to bake it, I just pick up the sides of the parchment paper and lower the whold shebang, paper and all, into the Dutch oven. The corners of the paper turn brown but don't burn. Then, when the bread is done baking, I just turn the whole thing over and throw away the paper. No sticking, no mess.

Bonnie
01/04/2009 06:38 AM

Thomas, Would you be willing to post your recipe (a la Reinhart?) Like many out there, it was NKB that got me to buy Rose's bread book and while I adore it, I still long for something a *little* easier. (I find the Hertzberg breads often lack depth of flavor, though very satisfying in other ways, so I am very curious about your methods.) Thanks.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
07/31/2008 12:24 PM

gee, i've posted so much on this bread i have absolutely nothing to add other than that you try following my instructions to a tee--i don't seem to remember refrigerating the dough overnight--no in fact i don't. all these things make a difference. try once exactly as i do it with exactly the same room temperature and see if that solves your problem. then you can make minor alterations to fit your schedule or situation and see how it affects it.

Ross
07/31/2008 12:16 PM

Rose,

I posted here, couldn't figure out why I hadn't heard back from you. . . Now find that my posts are being send to the December posts for some reason. . .

Ross
07/31/2008 12:12 PM

First Happy Anniversary!

I have made about 20 NK loaves and am generally satisfied with the results. I have a couple of questions about improving my results, however.

Here's my technique: I mix either bread flour or half AP & bread, salt and water (by weight) and allow to sit for 20 minutes. In order to conveniently introduce the yeast, I start it with a little water & flour. I find that the liquid is easier to mix in.

I allow the dough to rise about 8 hours and twice during that time I insert a spatula between dough the edge of the bowl and "turn" the dough towards the middle of the bowl in order to stir it a bit and punch down.

The dough gets refrigerated overnight and then after warming and rising in the morning, I turn it out to lightly knead and shape. At this point I'm usually getting large bubbles in the dough and I'm wondering if my yeast is too active?

I allow to rise (still large bubbles) a second time and then slice the top (very difficult - any suggestions?)

My loaves are great, I'd like to get a little more rise, and figure if I can make an alteration to my technique that will happen.

thanks,

Ross
07/27/2008 09:47 AM

I have amde about 20 NK loaves and am generally satisfied with the results. I have a couple of questions about improving my results, however.

The dough gets refrigerated overnight and then after warming and rising in the morning, I turn it out to lightly knead and shape. At this point I'm usually getting pretty large bubbles in the dough and I'm wondering if my yeast is too active?

My loaves are great, I'd like to get a little more rise, and figure if I can make an alteration in my technique that will happen.

tom
01/21/2008 10:30 AM

Anyone interested in the Baparoma Steam Baking Master, they are still sometimes available on eBay. I just bought a set of two, for $40 with shipping.

Just do a search for "Baparoma."

Natalie
01/10/2008 09:55 PM

Natalie: I'm Jeff Hertzberg, one of the authors of "Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day." I've done our dough in a covered pot, and it works beautifully, but if you want larger holes with our method, try "aging" the dough for longer. What distinguishes our approach is dough storage (a long retard phase in the refrigerator, up to two weeks). Fermentation by-products will weaken the gluten and allow better inflation with residual carbon dioxide that's still in the dough. Interested to hear how you make out.

Jeff Hertzberg

Natalie Dameshek
01/10/2008 11:50 AM

I have been making no-knead bread for a year and tried Hertzbog's today for the first time. It was good but not as crusty or holey as Bittman's.
I am going to experiment w/ baking the Hertzbog bread in the covered pot. I use a $30 white ceramic one from Crate and Barrell and get fabulous results. it is only a 3.5 qt but has been a workhorse for over a year in that high temp oven.
Happy Baking.

Beth
01/07/2008 03:55 PM

Can anyone give suggestions on how to use the Romertopf clay pots for baking bread? The recipe I have that was in an old clay pot cookbook specified that one puts the bread in the pot, lets it rise, then puts the pot in a cold oven. I thought one of the benefits to the clay pot was the steam that is released in the baking process. If one puts the soaked pot into a cold, and then preheats the oven, and then, finally, puts the dough into the pot, isn't the effect of the steam lost? (The no-knead bread way.) So, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has used the pots for bread. I have 2 of them sitting around unused.Thanks, Beth

Matthew
01/07/2008 03:08 PM

I've had success using a biga--it improves the flavor quite a bit. I think your bread might run out of "gas" if you let it sit in the fridge for a week. The ingredients are so cheap though, it wouldn't hurt to try. I suspect it will take a long time to rise if it rises at after a week.

S.H.
01/07/2008 01:36 PM

Rose, you said one of the cons for this type of bread is the lack of a more complex taste compared to breads I assume made with a poolish ? If so would leaving this dough in the frig for a week improve the taste (I tried Jeff Hertzberg's recipe that used more yeast and it tasted too alcoholy) ?

ruth
01/03/2008 07:24 AM

Has anyone else tried the new Flame cookware by Emil Henry for this bread? I have used it several times with fantatic results. I tried both the originial and CI versions.

Morgana
01/01/2008 12:06 PM

I'd try it. You have nothing to lose, really, but a little time and a few cents worth of ingredients.

I use a pot very similar to Le Creuset and have heated it to 475 with no problem.

Laura Lundy
01/01/2008 12:01 PM

I'm not so keen on subjecting my LeCreuset dutch oven to the preheat at high temperature. I have a heavy old aluminum dutch oven that I would rather use, but I haven't seen any mention of aluminum. Any thoughts?

Janina Kropka
12/13/2007 09:16 AM

Hi Rose,

Thank you for your kind comment. It is a thrill to receive a reply from someone I admire so much!

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/11/2007 09:10 AM

janina your bread crumb looks better than the original in CI! the link works but there's no way to post a photo directly on a posting. there is, however, on the forums!
note to everyone: thanks for sharing your results!

Joel
12/10/2007 02:18 PM

The CI technique, which added in some kneading, was meant to lower the hydration so the dough didn't spread out in the pot and result in a flat loaf. I have found that refrigerating the dough after rising for 8 to 24 hours and then baking with no second rise, just shaping the loaf and letting it warm up for half an hour or so, keeps the dough thick enough that it doesn't spread out. Putting cold dough into the pot consistently gives me a nice boule shape, and it allows keeping the hydration at the 80-85 percent level.

veron
12/10/2007 02:03 PM

I tried CI's version. I agree the beer adds more flavor but I think I'll stick to the original version since I don't want to waste a bottle of beer if no else wants to drink it. And crumb was a bit denser too...which I did not like.

Thomas
12/10/2007 07:05 AM

Jeff,

Thanks, I can definitely see the advantage in convenience with your method. It takes about four hours at 75 degrees for my cold dough to rise. Even longer if I don't give it a few folds when it comes out of the fridge to kick-start the process. I think it's worth it to have those natural sugars in the dough after delaying the fermentation, but others might find the added convenience preferable. Especially if they're after more of sourdough flavor, which seems to be one of the characteristics of your method after the dough "ages".

I plan to try it both ways, aging the dough before and after the initial rise.

Janina Kropka
12/09/2007 10:42 AM

Hi Rose,

I've made the no knead bread using your instructions and it turned out really well. I decided to try the CI version last night and baked it this morning. I used organic unbleached white flour, Creemore springs beer(an unpasteurized lager) and white vinegar as per the CI recipe. I let the dough rise for 14 hours ( a little long I know)and then the formed loaf for two hours. I baked it in a 3 quart Kitchen-Aid cast iron dutch oven. I was really pleased with the resulting bread and I thought I'd post some links to pictures of it.It was 4 1/4 inches high and 7 inches wide.It had a nice crispy crust and a very pleasant sourdough taste. I think the vinegar and beer added a lot of flavor. The shape is not perfect because the parchment paper kind of scrunches up the loaf in the small size dutch oven. This is the first time I've posted pictures so please forgive me if it doesn't work.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2122/2098166842_1b3c08d529.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2112/2097389139_3258e974ed.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2218/2097389231_445a57bda1.jpg?v=0

p.s. does anyone know how to embed photos in posts?

Jeff Hertzberg
12/08/2007 10:59 PM

I'm Jeff Hertzberg, one of the co-authors of "Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day." I appreciate everyone's interest in our method, in particular, Thomas's comment. Our method will work equally well if you refrigerate before rising, but it will take much, much longer to achieve the initial rise. Also, I am experimenting with a low-yeast version that appears to work equally well and imparts less of a commercial yeast flavor to our stored dough. Storing the dough is what differentiates our method, distributing active prep time over many, many loaves (as many as eight, practically speaking. Our website (www.artisanbreadinfive.com) has a few videos that clarify.

gale Watts
12/07/2007 08:32 AM

I have made several recipes from the Hertzberg and Francois book with success. The brioche is quite nice (to say nothing of being easy and convenient). As the breakfast chef at an inn, I like having the dough available for last minute baking. I suppose for the true artisanal baker the formulas are too easy and accessable but for some of the rest of us they work quite well. There is some trade off of convenience for flavor, but the recipes can be easily tweeked to compensate.

Thomas
12/07/2007 07:57 AM

I haven't tried Hertzberg yet, but I'm sure I will sooner or later. The book is called Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day, and the site is www.artisanbreadinfive.com .

I've been baking a couple of loaves a week for about a year using a combination of Lahey's original NY Times method and Peter Reinhart's Pain a l'Ancienne, with a few modifications of my own.

Per Reinhart, I mix a wet (80%) dough with cold ingredients, then immediately cover and refrigerate. This lets the starches break down into sugars before the yeast starts acting, which gives the bread a wonderful flavor -- better than the low-yeast, slow-rise method, I think. The next day, I take it out of the refrigerator, give it a few folds with wet hands, and let it rise in a covered bowl greased with baking spray (the stuff with flour in it). Then dump directly from the bowl into a dutch oven, score it, and bake.

After the CI article came out, I adopted their idea of proofing in a parchment-lined skillet and laying the parchment right in the pot. Much better, because you don't deflate the dough like you do when you pull it out of the bowl, and the parchment prevents sticking (no flour or corn meal needed in the pot), and you can score it before it's in the pot (much safer). And better than Lahey's method because you don't have flour flying all over the place, or dough sticking to the side of the pot when your aim is off.

Their vinegar and beer idea doesn't appeal to me. They say they were after a yeasty flavor, but to me that says you used too much yeast. But I'll probably try it anyway one of these days. Far be it from me to second-guess the mad scientists at CI. Working there would be my dream job.

Hertzberg basically does the opposite of what I do: I refrigerate before it has a chance to rise; he lets it rise then refrigerates. I can't see the advantage of aging a risen dough, but again, you never know until you try.

Beth
12/06/2007 02:26 PM

Speaking of no-knead bread, has anyone tried the Hertzberg method yet (no-knead, moist dough stored in the refrigerater for up to 2 weeks). There was an article in the New York Times the day before Thanksgiving, and the cookbooks are selling like hotcakes on Amazon. I haven't decided yet whether to purchase, having just got a Zo bread machine!

Beth

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/06/2007 07:42 AM

i can see in the magazine photo it is more dense. the kneading would do that. looks like everyone wants to "improve" on this perfect little technique!

Steven H
12/06/2007 06:12 AM

Rose have you tried the CI modification yet ? I'm curious how you would play with as most people say it produces more compact holes and so is more dense.

Morgana
12/02/2007 09:25 AM

There is a more tangy, sourdough type taste with the Cook's Illustrated recipe using vinegar and beer. I like it. Their method of letting it rise the second time on parchment and then placing the parchment in the cooking pot is great! I will use it from now on.

Dan O'Brien
12/02/2007 08:29 AM

Cooks Illustrated (Jan/Feb 2008 Issue) just did a "No-Knead Bread 2.0" feature that fine-tunes a recipe that appeared in the NY Times (Mark Bittman, Nov 2006).

The updated recipe adds white vinegar and beer for flavor and a 15-second knead before final proof and baking (OK, it's "Almost No-Knead Bread").

I've been following this thread for a while but haven't tried the technique yet. I'm usually fairly impressed with results of CI's efforts to perfect whatever recipe they decide to go after, so I might finally give this a try...

Rose Levy Beranbaum
11/24/2007 10:27 AM

yes! non-stick foil is great!

Morgana
11/24/2007 08:11 AM

Oops, I forgot! I don't use the oiled bowl any more. Just the foil. My daughter likes the oiled bowl method better than I do.

Morgana
11/24/2007 08:10 AM

I use the non-stick foil from Reynolds all the time for rising the bread. It comes off perfectly, every time. Better, in my opinion, than parchment.

enjay
11/24/2007 07:51 AM

This is kind of late, but I've been experimenting with the no knead bread in my 3 quart dutch oven. The only thing I'm too scared to try is rising it on a towel..so I've been using parchment instead. Is that an okay idea? Thanks for all the updates on this one!

Morgana
08/10/2007 06:31 AM

Shuang,
I mix it by hand, no mixer is necessary and it is just one more thing to wash. I also let the dough it rise two hours in a lightly oiled bowl, covered with a towel. Then it can just be overturned into a casserole.

It is a little weird to get used to handling such a moveable dough. Using the bowl prevents difficulty moving it into the hot pot. I use a glazed ceramic (Corningware) pot with a glass lid. It is a 3 quart size, oval, and I never have to wash it out. I just use it over and over again. It's become my dedicated bread baking "steam oven".

Matthew
08/10/2007 01:31 AM

Shuang,
I shaped mine on a half sheet pan lined with silpat and a dusting of flour. After rising, I removed some of the excess flour on the silpat, then I placed the pan on the baking stone. You are right, this is not a dough that you can move around a lot. I also covered mine with lightly greased (sprayed) plastic wrap, not a cloth. Recently, I found an inexpensive plastic storage box that my sheet pan fits in, so I use that as a proofing box/cover instead of plastic.

Shuang
08/10/2007 01:09 AM

I made it with my KitechAid stand mix that I brought from the US. It is just very wet and sloppy that I simply don't know how to get it into shape to move it onto the pizza stone for the baking.

Matthew
08/09/2007 10:32 PM

Shuang,
Yes, this dough has high percentage of water. Did you make it with a stand mixer or by hand? If you want to make it by hand, you can use the no-knead technique. I tried it a little while back and posted my results.

Shuang
08/09/2007 10:05 PM

I tried to make the ciabatta bread and the dough is so wet and sticky. I would like make sure I didn't do something wrong with the ingredients. Also because the dough is so wet, when I put it for the last rising, it becomes so goopy, more like batter than dough, and sticks to the towel I used to cover it. It makes it very hard to transfer to a baking tile or pizza stone. Anything wrong with this? Do you have any suggestions? I do have a clay pot to stewing. Can it be used in lieu of the cast iron oven for baking the bread in? Thanks.

Morgana
08/09/2007 05:24 PM

I have been baking this bread for 3 months. I use an oval Corningware casserole, at 475 degrees, and it works beautifully.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
07/23/2007 09:09 PM

more like a batter--too sticky to touch.

Bina
07/23/2007 05:19 PM

My husband and I both have wheat and yeast allergies so I'm going to try and make a sourdough spelt version of the NKB. Could I just ask you how wet the dough should be at 75% hydration? Is it firm enough to form a ball or should it be more like a batter? If any of your readers have tried baking bread with spelt, I'd appreciate any hints since it's meant to be very difficult to work with. Your site is the best I've found on actual bread baking information. Thanks.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
07/14/2007 04:22 PM

if you can't find a cooler area (and the frig is way too cold) i would decrease the yeast as it is the long rising time that gives it the best texture.

Amber
07/02/2007 12:25 AM

I have some questions about temperature. I love the no-knead idea, and nothing is better than holes in a good crunchy bread. Using my dutch oven makes the crust amazing, like I have never been able to achieve. But here's my problem--I live in San Diego, and it's summertime. Even with our a/c on, it's not going to be 70 degrees anywhere in my house for 18 hours at a time! 12, maybe, if I start the bread late in the evening. But then I have to bake it midday the next day--not appealing. (Although I am curious to try "grilling" it.) My question is--can the rise be adjusted to permit a warmer room? More or less yeast? In the refrigerator? Sugar? Now that it's heating up, I can't quite get the texture right--nothing like your picture. Any ideas?
Thanks, and if you want my two cents--another bread book!

Brian
06/19/2007 06:01 PM

I haven't tried adding sugar yet myself, but my father has now been using sugar whenever he makes the bread. He really likes a nice dark crust and he says the added sugar helps the whole loaf turn a medium brown.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
06/19/2007 08:19 AM

have you tried it without the sugar? you may find that the residual sugars in the dough intself are sufficient. if you add sugar or honey it will surely rise a little faster but feel free to experiment.

Cindy
06/19/2007 05:12 AM

Rose,
Can honey or sugar be added to this no-knead bread? I love just a hint of sweetness and would like to try adding a tablespoon of honey. Would this cause any problem? Does sugar feed yeast and cause it to grow? If it does, 20 hours of rise time would create a lot of yeast. I'm new to bread baking and don't quite understand the science. I'd hate to try doing this only to wake up to bread dough bubbling all over my counters.

P.S. I love the Cake Bible and just ordered the Bread Bible from Amazon.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
04/01/2007 03:13 PM

at this point i don't have it--i'm assuming you mean the original, but if you want to see all of my versions of it just put no knead bread in the search engine and you'll find it.

Harold
04/01/2007 01:19 PM

Rose,
Would you please give me the URL for the recipe for NK bread baked in a 5 qt cast iron dutch oven.
Thank you

Jane Roth
02/28/2007 07:12 AM

I've made a very inexpensive steamer which made a great crust! The outer casserole (with fairly straight sides)is 3-1/2 quart. The inner is a standard straight sided souffle dish. I put a cup of water between the dishes prior to heating and then proceeded with the recipe. Bake half the dough at a time for a nice mini boule or all the dough for a large bread with nice size slices for sandwiches but not so perfect looking. (A bigger outer casserole might be good to allow more room.) I also follow your tip about finishing the baking on a baking sheet.

John Lim
02/11/2007 07:47 PM

Dear Ilene,
I do the final proof of the dough for the NK bread on floured baking paper. The paper is cut with ample margins to lift the dough up by lifting the edges of the paper to gently lower both paper and dough into my stainless steel pot.Put on the cover and return the pot back to the oven. No problems with sticking to the bottom or sides.Very clean and neat. After 30 minutes, using tongs I lift the paper with the bread out of the pot and place the bread on the baking stone to brown the bread. The inside of the pot remains clean. !

Rose Levy Beranbaum
02/07/2007 12:47 PM

i think the problem is you didn't have enough flour on the outside of the dough. i love the bran bc it's so coarse it really seems to prevent sticking.

Ilene Richardson
02/07/2007 11:20 AM

Rose,I bought a new enamiled cast duch oven 5qt., made the NK bread in it and it stuck to the bottom and the sides. I didn't use any spray, was that my problem?

Rose Levy Beranbaum
01/22/2007 10:04 PM

whenever you use pyrex you need to lower the temperature 25 degree F in order to achieve the same results. (of course this includes pie plates)

barb
01/22/2007 06:22 PM

I'm on my 6th loaf of the no knead. Using a 2.5 qt pyrex. Even 450 browns the bottom a bit much. Dying to try some additions. Anyone else tried anything? I'm thinking dried fruit, something with cinnamon, olives, not all together of course.

Bill
01/22/2007 05:22 PM

Sorry, I posted the above question to the wrong area! I'm new around here. I'll repost my question to the pie area.

Bill
01/21/2007 06:10 PM

I just starting making my own pie crusts and pies after being inspired by your TV show. I got a copy of your Pie & Pastry Bible, and decided to make the banana cream pie. It was really delicious, and everyone loved it!
I made the Sweet Cookie Tart Crust for the first time, and although it tasted good, it got extremely hard, and the first two pieces were very hard to remove from the pan. I'm wondering what to do differently next time, since I intend to make this pie again. I made the crust as instructed. It rolled out nicely, but I had some difficulty transferring it to the pie plate, so I ended up patching it some by hand. I blind baked it with beans as a weight at 425 for 5 min, lowered the heat to 375, and baked it for about 10 more minutes. The top of the crust was browning quickly after 5 minutes, so I put a foil shield around it. When it took it out of the oven, the outer crust was a little too browned, but the middle of the crust was golden, with a little tan on the sides. I let it cool, brushed it with white chocolate, and let it cool again overnight before filling it. I'm wondering if I baked it a little too long, or if there's something else I can do differently next time. Thanks for this great site!!

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/30/2006 06:36 PM

you're right al--the pan recommended was way larger than needed. but i'm surprised that a 4 quart could hold double the dough bc mine rose almost to the top--4 inches in height. what was the finished size of your loaf?

Al
12/29/2006 05:53 PM

I use a Lodge 4 quart cast iron pot with cover and I double the recipe for this bread. The result is a really nice boule that makes great bread slices. The original recipe suggests a container that seems way too large for the job.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/29/2006 08:00 AM

thanks--i think this information will be very helpful to many people.

BarbaraZ
12/28/2006 02:05 PM

Gluten intolerance is known as sprue or celiac disease. I have heard that its cause was finally discovered during WWI (or WWII) in Holland. The children who had difficulty tolerating regular wheat flour were given bread made with potato flour, and their symptoms decreased. It was a surprise to everyone!
Celiac disease can be inherited. My husband has one branch of his family that has documented cases going back to the American Civil War. (Including testimony from friends and neighbors about the soldier's symptoms.)
Foods which contain gluten are fairly widespread (not just rye, wheat, barley etc)and must be avoided to relieve the distressing symptoms.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/26/2006 04:46 PM

i've heard good things about both viking and wolf but my most important recommendation is that if at all possible get a wall mounted oven placed so that the middle shelf is on level your hands when your arms are slightly below right angles which is where one is the strongest for lifting. this is less important for bread than for a heavy roast but what with that no-knead bread baked in cast iron you'll be doing your back a great favor avoiding lifting from a low level!

Katherine
12/26/2006 03:36 PM

Please help me select the best ovens for bread baking. I will replace two aging (34 years) Thermador electric ovens. I will also need to use these for everyday baking and roasting.
Katherine

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/21/2006 09:31 AM

i had taht happen with some of my trials but with my final version it was to my taste the perfect chew! when i used a lot of steam it was the chewiest of all. secret: i'm making another one right now using 75 grams of old starter which i hydrated to 80%, increased the salt to 10.7 grams (and extra 1/8 teaspoon. i'm really curious to see if it will affect the texture and if i'll like the flavor. i'm letting the starter soak in all the water for several hours and breaking it up so it won't add strength to the dough and tighten the crumb. stay tuned!

Hrafnkell Eiriksson
12/21/2006 04:35 AM

I find that the crumb of these Jim Lahey no-knead type of breads is very chewy, almost rubbery. Too much to my liking really. Have you experienced that?

I guess its the gluten getting really strong and then the high heat possibly as well when the proteins tighten and denaturate. Eggs get chewy and rubbery when you cook them for to long and/or high heat.

FYI: I bake mine in a stainless steel pot. Works great and gives the sides lots of support so the bread rises high.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/19/2006 11:30 AM

thanks! sounds like the chicken fryer flies! but i do like the smaller circumferance bottom of the dutch oven.

Justin
12/19/2006 11:22 AM

hi rose,
I wrote earlier about the hieght of my loaves made in the 3quart chicken fryer, I took a few pictures, and my latest one came out 3 and 3/8th inches.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/18/2006 05:58 PM

i was WONDERING if you had found the steam master!

i actually find that too much steam makes the bread more tough and chewy. higher hydration seems to make it more tender as long as it is kneaded minimally. oil certainly adds tenderness but if too much is added softens the crust. it is all such a delicate balance but experimenting is half the fun!
i'll be posting my loaf #10 results which i'm thoroughly pleased with as soon as i get the numerous photos to the dear blog master for posting! crisp thin crust with just the right amount of chew.

Diana
12/18/2006 05:37 PM

Hi again Rose!

Thanks for the quick response!!

Actually I found the Steam Baking Master on eBay.

I am searching for the simplest way to make baguettes with that "egg-shell" crust and good flavor (although not necessarily the no-knead method). I have a few different recipes I use (including yours - Thank you!) depending on my schedule but I have yet to achieve the crisp/tender crust. The closest to that crust I have come to is the no-knead in the dutch oven.

I need to keep it very simple as I work for myself and have all the good and bad that comes with that!

One last thing, any suggestions on how to get a simple bread (for example, your baguette recipe) a little tenderer. My breads have always seemed too chewy (actually tough is more like it) using Unbleached AP (King Arthurs and Havest Gold) or bread flour. Am I doing something wrong? Or perhaps I should add a little fat? Maybe a little olive oil? Any suggestions?

As always thank you for everything and I am glad to see you have your PC back!

Take care,

Diana

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/18/2006 04:54 PM

i haven't used the steam baker for making baguettes as this is one bread my husband doesn't like and it doesn't keep all that well. but since the steam baking master is no longer available it's kind of a moot point! honestly, i expect they would be pretty much the same except that the steam master had the curved base so you would need to put the dough in that sort of pan. i'm sorry i can't be more definitive.

Diana
12/18/2006 04:34 PM

Hi Rose!

Could you tell me how you would compare the steambreadmaker to the "Steam Baking Master" for baguettes. Do you find that you get a crisper crust with one over the other?

I have made the no-knead bread and have found the crust to be nice and crisp. Do you remember if the crust from the product King Arthur sold was more or less crisp/thin as the no-knead bread in a dutch oven?

Thanks and Happy Holidays!!!

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/18/2006 01:35 PM

roxanne thank you for your very thought ful response to roma. although there are some people--i believe the disease is called sprew--who are allergic to yeast, gluten intolerance is far more common. it is so prevalent in italy that a lot of pasta is made with faro instead of traditional wheat. since roma is an italian name, if you are indeed of italian heritage it might well be gluten intolerance and roxanne's advice is excellent. as for mine, i apologize for having been so thoughtless.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/18/2006 01:22 PM

thanks mark! i called home over the weekend to see if it had arrived and was overjoyed to here that indeed there was a lodge package but it turned out to be the lid! so i'm about to do bread #10 in my old cast iron with new lodge lid (in place of the tipsy inverted cast iron pan!)using 80% hydration and if it's a success,when the enamel pot comes will do it again--if not i'll go back to 74% hydration in the new pot.
incidentally, EVERYONE: if you're using pyrex it should not excede 450 degrees. visions can go up to 500 but NOT the visions lid.

Mark Kelly
12/18/2006 09:43 AM

Rose:

Love you blog and website. Can't wait to read the results after you use our enamel coated Dutch oven!

Happy Holidays from all of us at Lodge.

Roxanne Rieske
12/18/2006 08:30 AM

Roma,

Do you mean that you are gluten intolerant? When most people say that they cannot digest "yeast breads," that usually means they have an intolerance or sensitivity to the protein (called gluten) in wheat flours. I doubt it has anything to do with the yeast, because yeast dies off during the baking process. I recommend seeing your doctor or an allergist to determine your specific intolerance to gluten.

If you are gluten intolerant, you'll need to find gluten-free baking books for gluten-free breads. The flours used to replace wheat flour include spelt flour, oat flour, soy flour, rice flour, Quinoa, and sometimes sprouted grains. Because of the lack of gluten in these grains, other additives need to be used to give these breads structure for rising.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/17/2006 10:46 PM

first you buy the book called "the bread bible" by rose levy beranbaum. then you turn to the chapter on quick breads. then you chose which one you want to start with and you make it.

roma mccormick
12/17/2006 07:55 PM

Rose do you make any yeast free bread
for people who cant digest yeast bread to good? thanks a bunch,

also i dont see the recipes after
it shows them? how do i make the
recipes... thanks roma

Roma

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/17/2006 07:41 PM

re yeast free bread: certainly. in "the bread bible" the chapter is called "quick bread"

roma mccormick
12/17/2006 07:39 PM

Rose do you make any yeast free bread
for people who cant digest yeast bread to good? thanks a bunch,
Roma

Justin
12/17/2006 04:11 PM

I would have to guess it comes out 3.5 inches high. The lid gives it a little extra space and the pot itself is supposed to be 3 inches high. The loaf tends to peak over the pot though. Anyway, I'm mixing up a batch tonight so I'll actually measure it and let you know.

Rose Levy Beranbaum
12/16/2006 10:39 PM

yes--chicken fryer is 3 quart and nice to know that works too as the bread is probably even higher in it. what was the height of your bread.
thanks for the christmas cookie compliments!!!

Justin
12/16/2006 10:07 PM

I've been using the Lodge Chicken Fryer Cast Iron pot, I think it's 3 quarts and comes with a lid to make the no-knead bread, and the pot is pictured here https://secure.lodgemfg.com/storefront/product1.asp?menu=logic&idProduct=3945,
at first I thought this would be to small but it's just right and the angled sides give the bread a little lift at just the right time. Anyway that was just some fyi. Also I wanted to let you know I also own your christmas cookie book and just made several recipes for gifts and all of them were wonderful. I think my favorite was the scottish shortbread, such simple rich flavor, incredible!

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Welcome to Real Baking with Rose, the personal blog of author Rose Levy Beranbaum.

Heavenly Cake Bake Along

Hector's Take on Rose's Cakes

No Knead Bread Nirvana Conclusions