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No Knead Bread Nirvana Conclusions
Bread #10 is coming up on Monday but I can't wait any longer to post my findings so I will post again soon after my final test. I plan to try my new Lodge 5 quart enameled cast iron Dutch oven which I strongly anticipate to be the ultimate baking container for this bread. And because it will limit the sideways spread of the dough, I am able to try increasing the hydration of the dough to 80%--close to my ciabatta--to have even more open holes in the bread. Meantime here are my findings and tips to date:
Pros: Speed of mixing, flexibility to fit into your time schedule, excellent texture and good flavor. Baking in a preheated Dutch oven is ideal for those who don’t have baking stones.
Cons: Decreased shelf life, less flavor dimension.
My Favorite Container for Baking this Bread
Baking the bread on a baking stone with steam (see below) results in a 9 inch by 3-1/2 high loaf but using a 5 quart enameled cast iron or seasoned cast iron Dutch oven results in 7-1/2 inch by almost 4 inch high loaf which is my preference. In a larger Dutch oven the bread will be the same size as on a baking stone.
Steam
If not using a Dutch oven:
Using the steamer together with the steamer lid (see below) resulted in the shiniest crust, best color, thinnest most crisp crust, and most chewy crust and crumb.
The steamer is also very effective if using an oven stone without the lid and cracking open the oven door just enough to insert the nozzle and steam the oven for about 1 minute.
A hand-full of ice cubes, tossed into a preheated cast iron pan set on the floor of the oven is the next best thing to the steamer. Though not as effective as the steamer it is much better than spritzing which causes the oven temperature to fall a good (actually I mean BAD) 25˚F every time the oven door is opened.
Additions
I find that using 100% white wheat flour results in the largest holes. 7-1/2% whole wheat flour closes the holes somewhat but adds lovely flavor. When I add whole wheat flour I use 1/2 tablespoon more water (total 360 grams).
Tips
Use your fingers to mix the dough, reaching to the bottom to ensure that all the flour particles get moistened, without overworking the dough.
I’ve stuck to the 18 hour first rise at 70˚F/22˚C. and 2 hour shaped rise at 80˚/26˚C. I’ve found in general that a warmer shaped rise results in a more open crumb. The dough is ready to bake when you poke it gently with your fingertip and it fills in slowly. I’ve found it to be consistently 8 inches by almost 2-1/2 inches in size at this point.
To keep the sticky dough from sticking to the towel, it’s best to use a coarse-weave towel and bran. Flour absorbs too much into the dough.
To avoid bran flying all over the kitchen, brush any excess from the towel. The top of the dough should feel slightly dry but if not, dust it with a little flour. Use the towel to invert the dough onto the counter and with floured hands, lift the dough and gently lower it into the pot, being very careful to avoid touching the hot sides.
In my oven, I bake the bread at 450˚F/230˚C. for 20 minutes. Then without the lid for 10 minutes. To keep the bottom from over-browning I set the bread on a baking sheet and return it to the oven for 5 minutes with the door propped partially ajar. (This allows moisture to escape and helps to keep the crust crisp.)
My (Almost) Final Recipe Weights and Volume
Harvest King flour or half unbleached all-purpose half bread flour:
468 grams (about 3 cups)
room temperature water: 354 grams, 1-1/2 cups (I’m trying 382 grams/1-
2/3 cups water for an 80% hydration in my new Lodge enameled cast
iron Dutch oven next)
instant yeast: 0.8 grams/1/4 teaspoon
salt: 10 grams/1-2/3 teaspoons
The New Steamer
I adore this steaming device for rustic loaves not baked in a Dutch oven, and use it in my Wolf oven with oven stone in place and without the lid. But in my country Gaggenau I’ll use it with the accompanying lid because even when not set on convection the fan vents out the air and moisture along with it. (Moisture is vital during the first 10 minutes of bread baking for the best crust and crumb.)
Check out: http://info@steambreadmaker.com
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Anyone interested in the Baparoma Steam Baking Master, they are still sometimes available on eBay. I just bought a set of two, for $40 with shipping.
Just do a search for "Baparoma."
Reply to this Posted by: tom | January 21, 2008 10:30 AM #
Natalie: I'm Jeff Hertzberg, one of the authors of "Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day." I've done our dough in a covered pot, and it works beautifully, but if you want larger holes with our method, try "aging" the dough for longer. What distinguishes our approach is dough storage (a long retard phase in the refrigerator, up to two weeks). Fermentation by-products will weaken the gluten and allow better inflation with residual carbon dioxide that's still in the dough. Interested to hear how you make out.
Jeff Hertzberg
Reply to this Posted by: Natalie | January 10, 2008 9:55 PM #
I have been making no-knead bread for a year and tried Hertzbog's today for the first time. It was good but not as crusty or holey as Bittman's.
I am going to experiment w/ baking the Hertzbog bread in the covered pot. I use a $30 white ceramic one from Crate and Barrell and get fabulous results. it is only a 3.5 qt but has been a workhorse for over a year in that high temp oven.
Happy Baking.
Reply to this Posted by: Natalie Dameshek | January 10, 2008 11:50 AM #
Can anyone give suggestions on how to use the Romertopf clay pots for baking bread? The recipe I have that was in an old clay pot cookbook specified that one puts the bread in the pot, lets it rise, then puts the pot in a cold oven. I thought one of the benefits to the clay pot was the steam that is released in the baking process. If one puts the soaked pot into a cold, and then preheats the oven, and then, finally, puts the dough into the pot, isn't the effect of the steam lost? (The no-knead bread way.) So, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has used the pots for bread. I have 2 of them sitting around unused.Thanks, Beth
Reply to this Posted by: Beth | January 7, 2008 3:55 PM #
I've had success using a biga--it improves the flavor quite a bit. I think your bread might run out of "gas" if you let it sit in the fridge for a week. The ingredients are so cheap though, it wouldn't hurt to try. I suspect it will take a long time to rise if it rises at after a week.
Reply to this Posted by: Matthew | January 7, 2008 3:08 PM #
Rose, you said one of the cons for this type of bread is the lack of a more complex taste compared to breads I assume made with a poolish ? If so would leaving this dough in the frig for a week improve the taste (I tried Jeff Hertzberg's recipe that used more yeast and it tasted too alcoholy) ?
Reply to this Posted by: S.H. | January 7, 2008 1:36 PM #
Has anyone else tried the new Flame cookware by Emil Henry for this bread? I have used it several times with fantatic results. I tried both the originial and CI versions.
Reply to this Posted by: ruth | January 3, 2008 7:24 AM #
I'd try it. You have nothing to lose, really, but a little time and a few cents worth of ingredients.
I use a pot very similar to Le Creuset and have heated it to 475 with no problem.
Reply to this Posted by: Morgana | January 1, 2008 12:06 PM #
I'm not so keen on subjecting my LeCreuset dutch oven to the preheat at high temperature. I have a heavy old aluminum dutch oven that I would rather use, but I haven't seen any mention of aluminum. Any thoughts?
Reply to this Posted by: Laura Lundy | January 1, 2008 12:01 PM #
Hi Rose,
Thank you for your kind comment. It is a thrill to receive a reply from someone I admire so much!
Reply to this Posted by: Janina Kropka | December 13, 2007 9:16 AM #
janina your bread crumb looks better than the original in CI! the link works but there's no way to post a photo directly on a posting. there is, however, on the forums!
note to everyone: thanks for sharing your results!
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | December 11, 2007 9:10 AM #
The CI technique, which added in some kneading, was meant to lower the hydration so the dough didn't spread out in the pot and result in a flat loaf. I have found that refrigerating the dough after rising for 8 to 24 hours and then baking with no second rise, just shaping the loaf and letting it warm up for half an hour or so, keeps the dough thick enough that it doesn't spread out. Putting cold dough into the pot consistently gives me a nice boule shape, and it allows keeping the hydration at the 80-85 percent level.
Reply to this Posted by: Joel | December 10, 2007 2:18 PM #
I tried CI's version. I agree the beer adds more flavor but I think I'll stick to the original version since I don't want to waste a bottle of beer if no else wants to drink it. And crumb was a bit denser too...which I did not like.
Reply to this Posted by: veron | December 10, 2007 2:03 PM #
Jeff,
Thanks, I can definitely see the advantage in convenience with your method. It takes about four hours at 75 degrees for my cold dough to rise. Even longer if I don't give it a few folds when it comes out of the fridge to kick-start the process. I think it's worth it to have those natural sugars in the dough after delaying the fermentation, but others might find the added convenience preferable. Especially if they're after more of sourdough flavor, which seems to be one of the characteristics of your method after the dough "ages".
I plan to try it both ways, aging the dough before and after the initial rise.
Reply to this Posted by: Thomas | December 10, 2007 7:05 AM #
Hi Rose,
I've made the no knead bread using your instructions and it turned out really well. I decided to try the CI version last night and baked it this morning. I used organic unbleached white flour, Creemore springs beer(an unpasteurized lager) and white vinegar as per the CI recipe. I let the dough rise for 14 hours ( a little long I know)and then the formed loaf for two hours. I baked it in a 3 quart Kitchen-Aid cast iron dutch oven. I was really pleased with the resulting bread and I thought I'd post some links to pictures of it.It was 4 1/4 inches high and 7 inches wide.It had a nice crispy crust and a very pleasant sourdough taste. I think the vinegar and beer added a lot of flavor. The shape is not perfect because the parchment paper kind of scrunches up the loaf in the small size dutch oven. This is the first time I've posted pictures so please forgive me if it doesn't work.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2122/2098166842_1b3c08d529.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2112/2097389139_3258e974ed.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2218/2097389231_445a57bda1.jpg?v=0
p.s. does anyone know how to embed photos in posts?
Reply to this Posted by: Janina Kropka | December 9, 2007 10:42 AM #
I'm Jeff Hertzberg, one of the co-authors of "Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day." I appreciate everyone's interest in our method, in particular, Thomas's comment. Our method will work equally well if you refrigerate before rising, but it will take much, much longer to achieve the initial rise. Also, I am experimenting with a low-yeast version that appears to work equally well and imparts less of a commercial yeast flavor to our stored dough. Storing the dough is what differentiates our method, distributing active prep time over many, many loaves (as many as eight, practically speaking. Our website (www.artisanbreadinfive.com) has a few videos that clarify.
Jeff Hertzberg
Reply to this Posted by: Jeff Hertzberg | December 8, 2007 10:59 PM #
I have made several recipes from the Hertzberg and Francois book with success. The brioche is quite nice (to say nothing of being easy and convenient). As the breakfast chef at an inn, I like having the dough available for last minute baking. I suppose for the true artisanal baker the formulas are too easy and accessable but for some of the rest of us they work quite well. There is some trade off of convenience for flavor, but the recipes can be easily tweeked to compensate.
Reply to this Posted by: gale Watts | December 7, 2007 8:32 AM #
I haven't tried Hertzberg yet, but I'm sure I will sooner or later. The book is called Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day, and the site is www.artisanbreadinfive.com .
I've been baking a couple of loaves a week for about a year using a combination of Lahey's original NY Times method and Peter Reinhart's Pain a l'Ancienne, with a few modifications of my own.
Per Reinhart, I mix a wet (80%) dough with cold ingredients, then immediately cover and refrigerate. This lets the starches break down into sugars before the yeast starts acting, which gives the bread a wonderful flavor -- better than the low-yeast, slow-rise method, I think. The next day, I take it out of the refrigerator, give it a few folds with wet hands, and let it rise in a covered bowl greased with baking spray (the stuff with flour in it). Then dump directly from the bowl into a dutch oven, score it, and bake.
After the CI article came out, I adopted their idea of proofing in a parchment-lined skillet and laying the parchment right in the pot. Much better, because you don't deflate the dough like you do when you pull it out of the bowl, and the parchment prevents sticking (no flour or corn meal needed in the pot), and you can score it before it's in the pot (much safer). And better than Lahey's method because you don't have flour flying all over the place, or dough sticking to the side of the pot when your aim is off.
Their vinegar and beer idea doesn't appeal to me. They say they were after a yeasty flavor, but to me that says you used too much yeast. But I'll probably try it anyway one of these days. Far be it from me to second-guess the mad scientists at CI. Working there would be my dream job.
Hertzberg basically does the opposite of what I do: I refrigerate before it has a chance to rise; he lets it rise then refrigerates. I can't see the advantage of aging a risen dough, but again, you never know until you try.
Reply to this Posted by: Thomas | December 7, 2007 7:57 AM #
Speaking of no-knead bread, has anyone tried the Hertzberg method yet (no-knead, moist dough stored in the refrigerater for up to 2 weeks). There was an article in the New York Times the day before Thanksgiving, and the cookbooks are selling like hotcakes on Amazon. I haven't decided yet whether to purchase, having just got a Zo bread machine!
Beth
Reply to this Posted by: Beth | December 6, 2007 2:26 PM #
i can see in the magazine photo it is more dense. the kneading would do that. looks like everyone wants to "improve" on this perfect little technique!
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | December 6, 2007 7:42 AM #
Rose have you tried the CI modification yet ? I'm curious how you would play with as most people say it produces more compact holes and so is more dense.
Reply to this Posted by: Steven H | December 6, 2007 6:12 AM #
There is a more tangy, sourdough type taste with the Cook's Illustrated recipe using vinegar and beer. I like it. Their method of letting it rise the second time on parchment and then placing the parchment in the cooking pot is great! I will use it from now on.
Reply to this Posted by: Morgana | December 2, 2007 9:25 AM #
Cooks Illustrated (Jan/Feb 2008 Issue) just did a "No-Knead Bread 2.0" feature that fine-tunes a recipe that appeared in the NY Times (Mark Bittman, Nov 2006).
The updated recipe adds white vinegar and beer for flavor and a 15-second knead before final proof and baking (OK, it's "Almost No-Knead Bread").
I've been following this thread for a while but haven't tried the technique yet. I'm usually fairly impressed with results of CI's efforts to perfect whatever recipe they decide to go after, so I might finally give this a try...
Reply to this Posted by: Dan O'Brien | December 2, 2007 8:29 AM #
yes! non-stick foil is great!
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | November 24, 2007 10:27 AM #
Oops, I forgot! I don't use the oiled bowl any more. Just the foil. My daughter likes the oiled bowl method better than I do.
Reply to this Posted by: Morgana | November 24, 2007 8:11 AM #
I use the non-stick foil from Reynolds all the time for rising the bread. It comes off perfectly, every time. Better, in my opinion, than parchment.
Reply to this Posted by: Morgana | November 24, 2007 8:10 AM #
Hi Rose,
This is kind of late, but I've been experimenting with the no knead bread in my 3 quart dutch oven. The only thing I'm too scared to try is rising it on a towel..so I've been using parchment instead. Is that an okay idea? Thanks for all the updates on this one!
Reply to this Posted by: enjay | November 24, 2007 7:51 AM #
Shuang,
I mix it by hand, no mixer is necessary and it is just one more thing to wash. I also let the dough it rise two hours in a lightly oiled bowl, covered with a towel. Then it can just be overturned into a casserole.
It is a little weird to get used to handling such a moveable dough. Using the bowl prevents difficulty moving it into the hot pot. I use a glazed ceramic (Corningware) pot with a glass lid. It is a 3 quart size, oval, and I never have to wash it out. I just use it over and over again. It's become my dedicated bread baking "steam oven".
Reply to this Posted by: Morgana | August 10, 2007 6:31 AM #
Shuang,
I shaped mine on a half sheet pan lined with silpat and a dusting of flour. After rising, I removed some of the excess flour on the silpat, then I placed the pan on the baking stone. You are right, this is not a dough that you can move around a lot. I also covered mine with lightly greased (sprayed) plastic wrap, not a cloth. Recently, I found an inexpensive plastic storage box that my sheet pan fits in, so I use that as a proofing box/cover instead of plastic.
Reply to this Posted by: Matthew | August 10, 2007 1:31 AM #
I made it with my KitechAid stand mix that I brought from the US. It is just very wet and sloppy that I simply don't know how to get it into shape to move it onto the pizza stone for the baking.
Reply to this Posted by: Shuang | August 10, 2007 1:09 AM #
Shuang,
Yes, this dough has high percentage of water. Did you make it with a stand mixer or by hand? If you want to make it by hand, you can use the no-knead technique. I tried it a little while back and posted my results.
Reply to this Posted by: Matthew | August 9, 2007 10:32 PM #
I tried to make the ciabatta bread and the dough is so wet and sticky. I would like make sure I didn't do something wrong with the ingredients. Also because the dough is so wet, when I put it for the last rising, it becomes so goopy, more like batter than dough, and sticks to the towel I used to cover it. It makes it very hard to transfer to a baking tile or pizza stone. Anything wrong with this? Do you have any suggestions? I do have a clay pot to stewing. Can it be used in lieu of the cast iron oven for baking the bread in? Thanks.
Reply to this Posted by: Shuang | August 9, 2007 10:05 PM #
I have been baking this bread for 3 months. I use an oval Corningware casserole, at 475 degrees, and it works beautifully.
Reply to this Posted by: Morgana | August 9, 2007 5:24 PM #
more like a batter--too sticky to touch.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | July 23, 2007 9:09 PM #
Hi Rose,
My husband and I both have wheat and yeast allergies so I'm going to try and make a sourdough spelt version of the NKB. Could I just ask you how wet the dough should be at 75% hydration? Is it firm enough to form a ball or should it be more like a batter? If any of your readers have tried baking bread with spelt, I'd appreciate any hints since it's meant to be very difficult to work with. Your site is the best I've found on actual bread baking information. Thanks.
Reply to this Posted by: Bina | July 23, 2007 5:19 PM #
if you can't find a cooler area (and the frig is way too cold) i would decrease the yeast as it is the long rising time that gives it the best texture.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | July 14, 2007 4:22 PM #
I have some questions about temperature. I love the no-knead idea, and nothing is better than holes in a good crunchy bread. Using my dutch oven makes the crust amazing, like I have never been able to achieve. But here's my problem--I live in San Diego, and it's summertime. Even with our a/c on, it's not going to be 70 degrees anywhere in my house for 18 hours at a time! 12, maybe, if I start the bread late in the evening. But then I have to bake it midday the next day--not appealing. (Although I am curious to try "grilling" it.) My question is--can the rise be adjusted to permit a warmer room? More or less yeast? In the refrigerator? Sugar? Now that it's heating up, I can't quite get the texture right--nothing like your picture. Any ideas?
Thanks, and if you want my two cents--another bread book!
Reply to this Posted by: Amber | July 2, 2007 12:25 AM #
I haven't tried adding sugar yet myself, but my father has now been using sugar whenever he makes the bread. He really likes a nice dark crust and he says the added sugar helps the whole loaf turn a medium brown.
Reply to this Posted by: Brian | June 19, 2007 6:01 PM #
have you tried it without the sugar? you may find that the residual sugars in the dough intself are sufficient. if you add sugar or honey it will surely rise a little faster but feel free to experiment.
Reply to this Posted by: Rose Levy Beranbaum | June 19, 2007 8:19 AM #