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For a great tutorial, check out the Baking Bible Bake Along with ROSE'S ALPHA BAKERS. The link is on the left side of the blog. We will also be posting "OUT-BAKES" from the book, on this blog, including step-by step photos and other extras.

An Artisan Baker Who Loves the Bread Machine

Jun 30, 2007 | From the kitchen of Rose

Me! Yes—I know I know—people are always shocked when I defend bread machines but here’s the full story behind it.

When I started writing about bread, many years ago, I wouldn’t even consider using anything but my hands. I remember writing something along the lines of “not for me a bread machine that would rob me of the pleasure of touching the bread.” But several years later, when I started working on “The Bread Bible,” I realized how limited my thinking had been. For one thing, when trying to create a bread such as ciabatta, with large holes, the dough needs to be so sticky it clings to your fingers. My temptation was always to add too much flour which closed up those large holes.

It was my friend Brinna Sands of King Arthur Flour, who encouraged me to try a mixer or bread machine, especially for these sticky doughs. She explained that the advantage of the bread machine over the stand mixer is that the gentle mixing action is most similar to that of the commercial spiral mixer preferred by artisan bread bakers. This is because it incorporates less oxygen into the dough, maintaining more flavor and keeping the dough more golden in color. She also shared the invaluable advice that she often uses the bread machine to raise the dough as well. For making single loaves or bread, the bread machine quickly became my first choice, but it is only recently that I have had the pleasure of using a Zojirushi bread machine.

I’ve ridden in a Rolls Royce on several occasions, but my dough never has—that is until now. The Zo, as it’s so fondly nicknamed (partly because people seem to find the full name a tongue twister—it’s pronounced: zo-juh-roo-sh) is often referred to as the Rolls Royce of bread machines. And now I know why. The slow, even whirling action of the two dough blades mixes the dough so gently during the first three minutes that nothing jumps out. After the first three minutes, the speed of the blades increases for kneading, alternating from clockwise to counter clockwise with such perfect motion, scraping the corners and sides becomes all but obsolete. And after kneading, the interior heats and maintains an even 83 to 84 ºF./28 to 29ºC. ideal for raising the bread.

The Zo is easily programmable, with three “homemade” settings making it possible to do an automatic degassing (stirring down of the raised bread) followed by a second rise after which I prefer to shape the bread by hand, the artisan way, letting it rise, and then baking it in a conventional oven. However, if I need some plain white bread for my meatballs, I’d sooner mix knead and bake in my new Zo on the quick setting, and have good tasting bread in 45 minutes than to run out to the supermarket and buy an inferior product in almost the same time!

Here’s how I program my personal settings for my soft white bread:

On Homemade setting 1, I program only a 3 minute knead. After mixing, I allow the dough to rest (autolyse) for 20 minutes. Then I switch to Homemade setting 2 which I’ve programmed for a 13 minute knead, a first rise of 1 1/2 hours, and a second rise of 1 hour. Of course you can adjust this based on which recipe you choose to bake. Simply watch the rise the first time you bake a new bread and if it seems to be ready early reduce the time or if it seems to need more time increase it.
Zo that’s the story!

Comments

Hello Imtiaz,
I often use Indian Atta flour in many breads (usually substitute half Atta by weight) with great results, I do find that I need to adjust the liquid amount upwards (5-10% more) than the original recipes as the Atta appears to absorb more liquid and the texture of the baked bread is slightly heavier as a result without the extra liquid.
Kind regards

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Hi Imtiaz,
We have not tried making bread with Indian multigrain wheat flour so we can not an answer from our experience. We suggest that you make a few recipes from the recipes included with your bread machine to know how the machine works with its own recipes. Then you could try substituting different ingredients. You may also want to check the website for the flour you want to use to see their recipes.
Rose & Woody

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Imtiaz Habib
Imtiaz Habib
02/ 3/2013 11:21 PM

Can an Indian multigrain wheat flour be used to make multigrain bread in a bread making machine (Oster Expressbake) with the other usual ingredients added in, of course? I want to use this flour because its cheap--20 lbs for 7.99.
First timer in bread machine home bread making, here!
Some tips for a newbie would be gratifying.

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Woody Wolston
Woody Wolston in reply to comment from Arlene
11/11/2012 07:13 PM

Hi Arlene,
We suggest that you post this on the Forums section, which will give your request more visibility for our international baking community to give suggestions to this subject.
We prefer not to have questions asking for people's general opinions on products posted on this section. We welcome opinions if it is specific to a recipe.
Rose & Woody

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I decided to go ahead and purchase the Zojirushi Supreme today. Looked at the Virtuouso but decided on the supreme. With my Kohl's 30% off I got it for $186.86 with free shipping and $20 in Kohls cash! For those of you that have one, what model do you have and why?

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Hi Breadman,
Hop Studios is our blog's engineers and designers. Their website link is at the bottom of the page.

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Nice blog here! Additionally your web site so much up very fast!

What web host are you using? Can I get your associate link in your host?
I wish my web site loaded up as fast as yours lol

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Sherry,

I also love my Bosch. You are correct the kneading times are different. There are 2 arms instead of one and the machine is faster. For whole grain bread (whole wheat, rye, spelt, kamut...) you would knead longer, 5-8 minutes to develop 100% of the gluten. It would depend on the protein of the flour.

For white (flour)bread it would only take 3-5 minutes. Good Luck. It takes a little practice when you switch from the KA, but once you get it down, I think you love the results.

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Sherry, I also have the Bosch and don't find adjusting kneading time noticeable. The Bosch is faster but the bowl is much roomier so I think the hook hits the dough just the same number of times vs the slower KitchenAid. Another good indication of knowing when kneadind is sufficient, is when the dough starts detaching from the bowl and becomes a ball.

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How would I substitute using a Bosch mixer instead of a Kitchenaid? I have both, but when mixing dough for several loaves of bread at once the KA can't handle it. The lowest speed on the Bosch is alot faster than #2 on the KA. Would the kneading time be shorter? The bread I make most often is the Basic Sourdough.

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Woody Wolston
Woody Wolston in reply to comment from J.R.
01/ 5/2012 04:23 PM

Hi J.R.,
Please check Rose’s books on high altitude baking. We also recommend these four sources:
1. Susan Purdy’s “Pie in the Sky: Successful baking at High Altitude”
2. Letty Holloran Flatt’s “ The Chocolate Snowball: And Other Fabulous From Deer Valley”
3. General Mill’s website for Baking Crocker & Baking at High Altitudes
4. USDA's website for recommendations

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I really would like to make good holy Artisan Bread.My problem is that I live in Colorado and my room tempeture is between 68 to 70 degrees.I would like to know how to get my dough to rise properly.I also live at 7200 feet elevation.I would like any help that I can get.I use a Cuisinart Convection Bread Machine now and in the past 2 years of trying I have never made a loaf that was worth eating Thanks J.R.

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Yea that's my confusion. It has it both ways. So unless otherwise stated its room temp? I'm new to the serious bread baking so it is a lot to take in. Haha.

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andrea, all the information is in the book. the longer you let the starter sit the more flavor is developed. try it out. maybe you'll prefer a shorter fermentation or if time does not allow use the shorter amount as it will still be delicious. start baking and you'll see it is not very complicated at all! reading about it seems much more involved but truly it is not.

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I have the bread bible book and I wanted to know if all of the starters are proofed at room temp? Especially the brioche it says can be proofed for one hour at room temp then fridge. Which is preferred? Also it says 1 hr min 24 hrs max is anywhere in between fine? Thank you for any help.

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Sherry: Buy a brand new floor brush, firmly and briskly go over your flour sacks.
This should really help in cleaning them.

Charlie

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Thank you so much Rose!

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Sherry:
If you have a clean stiff whisk broom. Try using that.
Lay the bag flat, and give it a good hard whisking with brisk movements.

Then take it outside and give a good hard shaking.

I hope this helps.

Charlie

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charlie, i have detailed instructions for turning recipes into a sponge base in "the bread bible."

it sounds like you have far too much yeast in the burger bun recipe or you wouldn't be tasting it. lower the yeast which will increase the rising time and offer more flavor development of the sort you desire. all this is explained in the book including % of yeast to use.

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Hello Rose:
I have two questions for you.


1. I have a recipe for lassy (raisin) bread.
How could I change it from a yeast base to a sponge base, and would this change the texture, taste etc.?


2. I have another recipe for a hamburger bun that is wrapped around a ground beef mixture topped with cheese.
It is very good, but the bun is light and fluffy, but has an overwhelming yeast taste.
Is there anyway I can do this without the yeast taste?

Thank you so much.

Charlie(female).

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Thanks, Rose. I boiled the flour sacks and it helped more than anything I had tried....most of the bigger clumps fell off. A lot of them still have tiny dried spots of dough...like sand, which come off easily when scraped with a fingernail, but off course I can't do that to all of them. Maybe after repeated washings they'll finally come clean. :-)

Thanks for your help!

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sherry, i've found the towels come clean when using very hot water. you may need to boil them if your washer doesn't heat the water enough! lovely idea to give as gifts. do let us know if this works.

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Hi Rose,

Do you know how to clean bread dough out of tea towels? I purchased some unwashed flour sacks from a bakery and when I washed them the flour turned into a ZILLION little gooey clumps of dough! I have soaked them in water and ran them through the washer, but with no luck. It would be impossible to pick them off individually, although they do come off easily that way...but then are stuck to my fingers! My intention was to give these as gifts to all my bread baking friends for basket liners. I would appreciate any help anyone could offer!

Thanks.

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I've never heard of rye "bread flour," I've only seen rye flour classed by either the coarseness of the grind or how much bran/germ it contains. I think the regular rye flour at your store would be fine for either bread. Pumpernickel does often call for a whole grain rye, but the regular kind works as a substitute.

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Yvonne Keiser
Yvonne Keiser
07/31/2010 01:08 AM

Due to an injury I can't knead bread and bought a Regal Kitchen Pro Bread Machine back in the 90's. It works great but they quit making a lot of bread flours and I really want to make some rye and pumpernickel bread. I know there is a difference between bread flours and regular flours and I also know that rye flour can be difficult to work with Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should do to make rye or pumpernickel bread in my machine? I have good recipes but they do specify using rye and wheat bread flours and I simply can't find any rye bread flour any place. If I mix regular rye flour with wheat bread flour will it turn out okay? Any help would be very much appreciated. Thank you.

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Anonymous in reply to comment from sue
07/28/2010 11:42 AM

If you let the dough over rise, then it can collapse like that. Make sure to monitor the volume of the dough as it is rising, not only the time (it may double in less or more time than specified).

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I made "Levy's" real jewish rye bread (BB) and everything went great until my last rise. before i put it into the oven, i slashed the dough and it deflated by almost half. should it do that? i baked it and it tasted nice. also, not only did the bread weigh 100 grams more than Rose's bread, but it was barely 3 inches tall.
what would cause the bread to deflate at the final rise? thank you.

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Francine Goodroe
Francine Goodroe in reply to comment from mary clites
06/13/2010 12:37 AM

Hi Sweetie! Looking at your date of inquiry, I hope you found bread flour in most supermarket, also it is in the WalMart Supercenter, bread aisle, it is right there with all the other flours. Ours keeps them eye level to me, well, I am short and sitting in one of those carts. Happy bakings to you!

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i agree, better for bread flour is really awesome and versatile. i really love making bread with it, handles well. this isn't paid advertising btw.

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Joy Rainwater
Joy Rainwater
09/22/2009 05:27 PM

Gold Medal makes a great bread flour it is called Better For Bread Flour

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i use my bread machinr alot but i buy the box mixes but i have recipes that cause for bread flour and i can't find any, or don't know who makes it. if any body can help me find out who does, i will be thankful. thank you for your time.

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i use my bread machinr alot but i buy the box mixes but i have recipes that cause for bread flour and i can't find any, or don't know who makes it. if any body can help me find out who does, i will be thankful. thank you for your time.

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Anthony,

There is a lot of information on the web about this. One thing I just read is that breads rise faster at higher altitudes, you can either decrease the yeast or check the dough often, stopping once it has doubled.

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Anthony Vacanti
Anthony Vacanti
05/30/2009 09:09 AM

I live in Florida and bake bread here. I am going to Montana in July and would like to make bread there. The elevation is 3000 feet. Is there anything different i should do to make my bread come out like it does in Florida?

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On the mini Zo, which has a 1 lb bread capacity (small loaf), knead 850 grams of just fed stiff starter with 10 grams salt. The pan will be near 3/4 full. Cover with a lightly oiled plastic wrap with olive oil (dough rises above the pan so the oil makes the plastic wrap detach easily, plus delicious olive oil flavor). Rise for 8 hours or until doubled in volume, the dough will rise well above the top of the pan.

Remove the pan with the dough from the mini-Zo. Punch down, slightly only till the dough is about 2 inches below the top of the pan, cover with the same oiled plastic wrap. Turn on the mini-Zo at fast bake cycle (1 hour knead and rise, plus 1 hour rise and bake). At the hour, the dough should have risen above the top of the pan. Remove the plastic wrap, insert in the Zo, and complete the second hour rise/bake.

Enjoy!!!!! This is the best texture I got, dense and feathery, never wet/spongy, great to eat without toasting.

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/Zo6-100PercentStiffStarterSalt.html

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and here is the bread, it is a breakthrough for me that I needed to report this immediately!

This is 100% stiff starter, about a lb, freshly fed, half tsp of non-iodized salt, and 2 tsp of extra virgin olive oil. Let the Zo knead as you see on the video below, 8 minutes on the cookie/pasta setting. Rise, covered, until it has doubled in volume, forming a beautiful dome. Now, remove the pan (holding the dough) from the Zo. Set the Zo to the 'quick bake' cycle which is 1 hour of kneading and risings, and the second hour of final rising and baking. After the 1st hour has passed, reinsert the pan (holding the dough), and there is bread.

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/Zo5-100PercentStiffStarterSaltAndOliveOil.html

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another Zo video, this is the second part of the dough/cookie function. My bread dough is getting a treatment no hands can match!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6324235096719544438&hl=en

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Margaret Freligh
Margaret Freligh
11/24/2008 11:02 AM

Of course, I only meant a recipe to mix in a breadmaker. I never heard of one that bakes.

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I am on loaf #10 making bread at my office with the mini-Zojirushi. It has been fun.

Here is what it looks, and please don't mind the ethnic items around the table!

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/Zo10BakeOnlyKneadWithKitchenAid300grStarter300grFlour200grWater10grSalt.html

This is the best texture I've obtained so far. Flavor has always been great and consistent, but texture has been very variable depending on hydration %, kneading amount, and rising times.

The mini-Zo "does-not" have a manual cycle, so I had to be a bit creative to make it manual. This time I wanted it to knead all ingredients once, then do a 12 hour rise, then bake (without kneading again).

To do so:

1- Use the Bread Dough Cycle to knead.
2- Turn off the machine for 12 hours.
3- Remove the bread pan (and bread dough).
4- Start the Quick Bread Cycle. After the kneading schedule was completed (about 60 minutes), reinsert the bread pan (and bread dough) and it will bake.

And presto! I am known to be the King of Hand Made, but really, it doesn't get any better than this to make bread at work. I take pride that I can still make bread without any commercial yeast, nor dough additives (sugar, milk, etc) thanks to Rose's fantastic sourdough starter. Soon I will look for a way to automate feeding and maintaining my starter!

Bread baking is like growing plants, there are some specific factors that you can see and manipulate for specific results.

bread your life away... /H

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hector definitely try the la cloche. convection is only good for the last 10 minutes of bread baking when you WANT to dry out the crust. la cloche will keep the moisture in--don't soak it--just preheat it and it will retain the moisture in the bread just perfectly. of course take it off to finish setting the crust.

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wait till Luca hears you can make bread in 1 1/2 minutes!!!!!!

He is still telling the UNIVERSE about your 5 plus page Basic Sourdough Bread. We are trying to use our Cadco convection oven but the crust doesn't come out the right color and texture, do you think a La Cloche will help? I think so!

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hector that video is hilarious which reminds me that we've been having a problem with an overhead leak in our shower, in fact it is leaking through the light at the top which is quite scary! anyway, i thought it was fixed but was standing in the next room talking to my husband when i heard that rhythmic drip drip drip or so i though until i went into the living room and realized it was the zo mixing the bread! whew!
i almost always use the bread machine though i adore the food processor for beer bread. under 1 1/2 minutes and perfecto!

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Seldom do I entrust machinery in my kitchen, you know I am the KING OF HAND MADE!!!

But, after 6 Kitchen Aid mixers, a couple of food processors, and a few strained muscles, I am endorsing the Zojirushi Bread Machine. There is just NO OTHER better way to mix/knead bread at the home of an artisan bread maker. The Zojirushi is so gentle and so perfectly designed to knead dough the best way flour can be touched. It is also mess free. Enjoy this video:

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/Zo4StiffStarterRefresh.html

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i'm sorry, i can't help as i don't use the bread machine to bake in--only to mix. my recipe for whole wheat bread is on this blog.

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I meant, unevenly browned.

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I meant, unevenly browned.

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I have a question. Just bought Zojirushi but am having a very difficult time turning out a good 100% wheat [home milled] and the loaf is uneven. Any recipe suggestions?

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I've just got the mini-Zo bread machine, hoping it will be a good fit for my office. It doesn't have a manual mode, but I think I can do by with one-or-a-combination from the many pre-programmed settings.

My first trial started last night at home with Basic Sourdough Bread. I tossed all the ingredients in the Zo, water first, then starter, then flour and salt. Then I turned on the Zo with the Basic Bread Setting (Regular). After the first kneading completed, the most beautiful dough I've ever seen was done: a most perfect stretchy ball, so feathery, so round, and so clean.

Then, I started the same Basic Bread Setting (Regular), but with a 7 hour delay timer which is the time the dough would take to reach first rise. I woke up this morning greeted by the most beautiful round and well formed rise.

Unfortunately the mini-Zo does not have a battery backup, so when I unplugged it and took it to my office, the cycle reset. Out of desperation, I started the Zo's Quick Baking Setting. The results were as expected: the bread turned sunken on the top due to the over rise and over mixing. Also, the dough was spongy.

Oh, well, we are having the most wonderful crostini toasts for lunch, at the office!

Here is the Zo, and the many pre-programmed Settings.

http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/Zo.html

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but don't forget the bread machine does a beautiful job mixing the dough!

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I have thought about that indeed. I will certainly think about it more. I have a great Kitchenaid so I can mix in that instead of having a very expensive mixer for bread dough.

Thank you for your very quick reply. Greatly appreciated.

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my suggestion is to mix in the machine and bake in the oven but perhaps there are other people out there who like baking in the bread machine and can give you some tips.

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I just bought the Zo breadmachine. While my first loaf of 100% whole wheat bread w/ gluten added turned out wonderfully perfect, I have yet to turn out another good loaf. From all of my testing, I now have enough bread cubes, from slicing the defunct bread, for 10 Thanksgiving stuffings! I need HELP!

I have tried recipes other friends have used in their machines, no good. Then I moved on to using only the recipes in the Zo manual, no good. I tried replacing all of my gluten and yeast, just in case they were bad - no good! Now what? I feel as though I am throwing good money and wheat flour out the window "experimenting" w/ a machine I was hoping would give me many, many 1,000s of loaves of bread.

Please send me suggestions, I am going insane. I prefer to bake on 100% WW bread, it would be terrific if you had any tips for me. Oh yeah, I went back and made the first loaf, hoping to replicate the wonderfullness of it and again - no good!

UGH!

Thanks.

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She uses unbleached in the video--I imagine if you used bleached, then you would have to wait the normal resting period. They certainly didn't work for me using the bleached immediately, but the unbleached did.

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Matthew, I just looked through my Baking with Julia book and the recipe states 1 cup all-purpose flour. Doesn't say if she used bleached or unbleached. So I guess it's not really helpful but thought I'd post it anyway so you know for sure what the recipe states.

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i have popovers right in the bread bible--two versions.

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Matthew, I can't wait for Rose's Heavenly Wondra Cakes to publish!

I feel that bleached flour would gelatinize more, thus sticking.

I remember reading that popovers uses baking powder, so resting times must do something or undo something.

My dearest friend Kathy gave me the book Baking with Julia, and there is a popover recipe. Let me find this book as I probably have it buried under Rose's Bibles!

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Hector, your post reminded me of a popover experiment I tried last month. I watched a baking with Julia clip and saw Marion Cunningham make popovers using a blender and baking them immediately in individual custard cups set on a 1/2 sheet pan. They popped up amazingly. What I found surprising was that she didn't let them stand for at least an hour like normal (except if you're using Rose's Wondra recipe). She also just sprayed the cups with spray--not hot bubbling butter. Unfortunately, she didn't specify the type of flour she used.

I tried them first with bleached all purpose, and they barely puffed and stuck mercilessly to the cups. I went back to another recipe in the episode and saw that she was in fact using unbleached flour. When I tried it with unbleached, they popped up dramatically and also popped right out of the cups. What I couldn't figure out is why one stuck to the cups and one didn't. Perhaps an issue with gelatanization and bleaching again?

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if you can find the lékué individual ones they're great.

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I don't have pop over baking pans. Should I get the Lekue ones? I do have some giant muffin tins.

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yes--quick bread--no yeast. actually no it's really a batter bread--it's more in the cream puff family.

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We love bread! My dearest friend Craig just handed me the recipe for Neiman Marcus Restaurant Lunch Popovers. I think the recipe is free distribution if you ask when at the restaurant.

This is a quick bread right? I've read the recipe rather quick and stashed the sheet of paper in my carry on luggage. Yes, I got it in the airplane, as I was traveling with him and a few others all the way to Palm Dessert, and with a 14 lb cake!

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adele, in the words of my wonderful blog master: "you have to watch the blog like a child"! i never heard of a name mixup happening so this is a first. let's hope it is an isolated incident.
i quite agree with you and prefer to use machines dedicated to one important purpose. (although i will admit to having washed 50 pounds of spinache in a clothes washer many years ago. it was an act of desperation and fortunately i had the presence of mind to run the machine empty first with vinegar to avoid any detergent residue! it worked like a charm by the way).

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Hi, Rose,
As usual, your page is such fun to read.
I was looking through some posts, and wonder if two might have been mistakenly identified. Glenna and I both posted on July 10, 2007, but my message had her name, and her message has my name. I've had my Zo V-20 ten years today, still use it for doughmaking -I'm an oven baker. I was lucky to find the new Zo BB HAC-10 "baby" machine at Christmastime,which makes an adorable loaf or small dough. There is no question that this brand makes a fine product. It's almost silent in operation, has one blade, but it's all that's "kneaded". It's not inexpensive, but it IS a quality product. With all my kids away from home, I don't really make 2 lb. doughs anymore, so this is perfect. To another post: Years ago I loved using Sir Lancelot high gluten flour...it's fantastic. However, my infrequent breadmaking works out well with most available bread flours.

Note: I don't see the point of "jam" in
a breadmachine. I see that as a hazard
and messy, awkward to manage. It's pretty simple to make a small batch the traditional method.

Note: Quick breads -NEVER use a machine.These are batters, best made with as little 'beating' as possible.
I use a wooden spoon and bowl.

Hope you all have a great Spring.

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in about 3 weeks i'll be posting a new favorite from maggie glezer's book with her kind permission. i tried it one time in the bread machine and though the final bread was excellent the dough had little lumps which concerned me. so not ALL breads work best in the bread machine after all! (just most!)

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Thanks, Rose and Matthew, for your prompt replies.

Rose, even though you may try to convert us all to bread machines for mixing/rising, that still feels too sacriligious! I'll have to try Matthew's tactic for now...

Thanks again for enriching my life...

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One more thing--wearing disposable unpowdered latex gloves makes this a lot more tolerable.

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Yes it can be made by hand. Read the technique for focaccia with herbs and do something similar (more squeezing than traditional kneading). I also just do it in a large bowl instead of on the counter. As the dough chills, it will get easier to handle, and all of the folding and setting around for two days further develops the gluten, so by baking time you have a nice bread.

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my heart really goes out to you. some years ago i saved and saved and finally got my first stand mixer. then my apt. was broken into and i lost all my childhood jewelry given by aunts and great aunts but wasn't unhappy bc they didn't think to take my mixer!
there are bread machines such as the bread man that are a lot more affordable than stand mixers and i do give the technique for using them. i'm sure in france years back and perhaps even today they make brioche by hand. it's a very sticky dough so it makes it more difficult but it can be done.

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Hello,

This is the most appropriate place I found to post my question...

I'm on a tight budget and thus have rediscovered the library! After checking out the Bread Bible five times and telling my mother all about it I decided to get it for her for her birthday. I was very sad that she was going to own a copy, but I would still have to go from one library branch to another. Then a small windfall of gift cards allowed me to buy two: one for me and one for my mom. I was so happy that I inscribed my copy to myself!

Anyway, to my question: I've been aware of the need for a stand mixer for a long time, but am not able to afford one. However, I'm so intrigued by the last section of the Bread Bible with all the interesting Brioche recipes.

So Rose, for those of us that do not have a stand mixer in our future, what suggestions can you make that would allow us to attempt the brioche recipes?

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In response to breadmakers. I have already gone thru a Welbilt, Toastmaster, Breadman Ultimate ,Cuisinart convection and now Zoji-BBCCX20. I baked at least two loaves per week. The Zoji is ok (after a year of usage), but I really like the Breadman Ultimate (it lasted 6 years). Disregarding the price differences. I am comparing my new Zoji with my now deceased Breadman Ultimate Here is why:

* I can add a lot more fruits and nut to the Breadman than Zoji, Breadman will accept 1-1/2 C on a 2 lb loaf. Zoji, 1 C because of the horizontal pan

*I found the Breadman can take more mistakes than Zoji, Zoji requires very accurate measurment of ingredients.

*there is no crust choice when making wheat bread in Zoji

*Breadman has 5 programmable memories, Zoji 3

*Zoji is a better built machine, although the Breadman still lasted 6 years

* The Zoji instruction book is hard to read, they also recommend using the instruction book's receipe only. Who can do that?

* Zoji can only bake 2 lb loafs because of the horizontal pan. Even 1-1/2 lbs loaves do not work well.

I think Zoji BBCCX20 is a good machine but a bit overblown, when I bought it, I expect a lot from it. After a year's usage, sometimes I missed my Breadman Ultimate.

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I love my bread machine. I am into no-fuss in the kitchen and I like how easy it all is just to throw everything in and out it comes. Haven't used it for a while now so this post just gives me a reminder to bring it on out again. Great blog by the way. I hope you can take some time to visit mine at some point: http://www.only-cookware.com/blog/

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The 1 lb Zo is must be one of the best ones out there. The advantage of the 2 lb model is that it has 2 paddles and the mixing bowl is horizontal, for the mixing is much gentler and it splashes less, needless to say that if you bake with it your loaf has the normal horizontal shape.

In any case, congratulations with your Zo, either models are great!

I don't have any experience making jams with it, I am still exploring the Cordon Rose method.

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I simply don't have enough room for the 2 lb. Zo, but Rose's post made we want to have one. Solution: the little 1 lb. Zo which arrived yesterday. It can't be programmed like the 2 lb., but it has several built in, so it will be usuable for kneading and perhaps rising small breads. The container is small.

Actually, the first thing we made in it was jam. One 1/2 pt. at a time would be a silly way to do a lot of jam; but we had some plums that were about to spoil, so we pitted and chopped them, added sugar and lemon juice and let it rip. 1 1/2 hours (of not having to do anything) later, there was some soft plum jam. It was a little too loose, so after the machine cooled down enough to start it again, I let it go for part of another cycle. They also include instructions for adding pectin if you like it stiffer. Cool. A good way to use excess fruit.

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I am certain that the Zojirushi described by Rose is the best there is for home bread machines. Unless you inherited a kneading technique from several generations of bread making families, I agree the Zojirushi could be the best method to mix and knead bread dough (even superior to your hands): gentle uniform action, climate controlled, etc.

Has anyone had the $40 Sunbeam 5891 2-Pound Programmable Breadmaker? It is widely available at Walmart. My friend Pedro, a visiting researcher from Portugal, and his girlfriend Micah, from Austria, claim their Sunbeam makes better bread than anything you can buy at a grocery store in the U.S. They use it everyday!

Luca has just made his very first Basic Sourdough Bread w/o a bread machine, and we think instead of getting him a stand mixer, he could do by with the inexpensive Sunbeam. The idea is to 'reserve' the Zorijushi for Hector!

In any case, when Pedro and Micah visited Luca, Luca put in the toaster a few slices of Basic Sourdough Bread. Pedro and Micah, after taking their first bite of bread said: "ohhhhh this is not store bought bread." Luca said "I made it, it is plain sourdough, no yeast, no oils, no sugar, no dairy."

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Oh Thanks Cindy,
I will go to the sogo and jusco and the other places you suggested. I don't really care what kind of bread machine I get, just as long as it works in India. The western breads you buy in India are just dreadful. I taught my housekeeper how to make sandwich bread and the bread machine will be great for her. Just to keep up with the daily toast demand, we could make plain white bread every day. I'd rather save my efforts for more fun and difficult projects.

My husband has been to HK lots of times, I've been once. He knows all the good places for cameras etc, but he's a bread eater, not a bread maker! Thanks so much for your help.

Mona

PS, if you click on my POSTED BY name, you will go to my web page. Maybe you could email me, so I don't have to bore the rest of the group with my HK shopping questions.

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Hi Mona,
I am glad that you are coming to HK.Sure you will enjoy shopping and the food here. I am afraid for bread machine, there is not much choice here since the Zo is not available anymore. When you shop for electrical appliances, the "Fortress " and "Broadway"provide many choices for AV equipment and not so much on cooking and baking appliance.For those cooking and baking stuff I think may be you can try "Sogo" and "Jusco".The big sogo is located in Causeway bay ,very heart of the city.Poat again for any assistance that you may need.
Cindy

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Cindy Chiu,
I'm going to Hong Kong next week to go shopping and relax. I'd like to pick up a bread machine to use here in India. The voltage is the same, I just use a plug adapter. Can you recommend a store where I can get one? Thanks for your help.
Mona

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I have a Zo and has been using it for nearly 10 years by now. But the Zo ABM has been withdrawn here in the Hong Kong market for a few years :-(. Don't know why but on the other hand ZO rice cooker, hot water bottle etc are getting more and more popular here.Due to the different in voltage, I am hesitane to get 110 volts ones from the states.

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Seems like Chefs Corner doesn't have Hawaii or Alaska listed as part of the United States! How DARE!

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Oh, Matthew - the pressure!!! :)

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FYI - the "ZO" can be purchased right now at Chef's Corner with 10% off plus no shipping charges. This is until 7-15-07. Hope this helps someone! I just ordered mine after shopping all around the net.

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Dear Rose, I really enjoyed your notes about the Zo. My Zo has been going for 9 1/2 years [the V-20], so it's been a fine investment. In the first year, I did a lot of machinebaking, but I'm a hand-formed-loaves baker at heart. I normally divide my doughs into one loaf and six sandwich rolls for maximum return on my effort. I'd gladly buy another Zo if my machine gives up its ghost someday. Your tip about removing the blades before the machine bake cycle starts is something I've done, too. Best wishes to you always,

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Rose--Thank you! I've used a bread machine for years too, for the convenience, but I can't tell you how many times other foodie friends have looked down their nose at me. I want to copy this link to every snot I know. :-) They won't believe me, but they'll believe you.

By the way, off the subject, I'm a big fan of The Cake Bible. I grew up with a cake decorater for a mother and had my own cake business for several years. That book was like finding a kindred spirit. You not only told me what to do, but why. I've never been very good at following directions without questioning every move and I loved the way you answered all those questions. Thank you.

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Thanks Matthew, no picture of the crumb unfortunately, we ate it to fast :D But it was just as Rose said, beautiful spintery crust and soft chewy crumb with air bubbles!
I reckon I didn't rock them back and forth long enough and they also got a little beaten up while I was transferring them to the baguette trays!

Thanks Theresa! I wouldn't risk adding more flour to the dough, this is the first time I've managed to knead a wetter dough by hand in fact wthout completely spazzing out and adding more flour. It felt so beautiful under my fingers after the first rise, sprimgy and soft!

Thanks for the suggestion Hector! I saw your pic of the no knead bread and it looks FANTABULOUS!

a.

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Ahona, perhaps you need to add more vapor during the first minutes of baking?

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Ahona - I have not made this particular recipe either, but the dough does look rather slack. But a baguette dough would tend to be a little wetter, so maybe it is meant to be that way. You could probably improve your slashes by adding more flour and/or kneading the dough longer, so that it is tighter and "springier," BUT you might ruin the wonderful texture of your finished bread. Why mess with it? If it looks great (and it does!) and is delicious, who cares about the slashes! :)

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I meant to add that the color of the crust looks fantastic. Do you have a picture of the crumb?

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Ahona,
I have a couple of guesses, but maybe Rose will have a better idea. It looks like your shaped baguettes don't have a tight skin, or enough surface tension. I haven't made the baguettes, but I when I shape a loaf bread, the skin tightens when you rock the dough back and forth on the counter to elongate it. It could also be that you need to match the depth of your slashes to the amount the dough will spring in the oven. If the dough is fully proofed , then it will rise less in the oven, so a shallower slash is better. If the dough is underproofed, then it will rise more, so your slashes will need to be a bit deeper to compensate for the spring.

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I have a question about baguettes, I hope someone can help!
Here are pictures of the ones I bake recently (from the bread bible)
http://thebigmama.blogspot.com/2007/07/i-never-thought-id-be-baking-baguettes.html
They tasted perfect, beautiful crust and crumb and HOLES, but they didn't open up along the slashes I made in the dough! None of my breads have yet, can anyone help me figure out why?
Thanks!
Ahona

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http://www.hectorwong.com/roselevy/BasicSourdoughBread25%25WholeWheat.html

4x recipe. Almost NK. Dropped on the 5 qt DO. 25% whole wheat. Love the oven spring! Dinner tonight.

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Yes, there is about a $100 price difference with the Zo. But I think not long ago, bread machines where selling for near $1000!

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Oh, it is definitely not a question of want--it is a question of price :)

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Oh, c'mon, Matthew - you know you want the Zojirushi!!!

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Does anyone know of any other bread machines, besides Zojirushi or Breadman, that allow custom settings or programs?

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Christine, you reminded me that my bread machine is supposed to be able to make jam. I will have to dig the manual out and try it. Thanks!

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I've heard that Essential Ingredient in Prahran stocks cake flour too :)
Thanks for the tip on gluten!!

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In regards to gluten flour (protein 73.8%) Select Naturals sell it in Oz. The phone number is 1800622619. It does make the world of difference in making bagels as we do have a more limited range of flours. I bought mine in a 'healthy life' shop.
To get back to the thread I made a loaf of bread (White bread 101) from the King Arthurs cookbook that would have done better in the bread maker. My husband pleaded for something that was not artisan, that did not have any seeds, or whole wheat or sourdough and if you please, was baked in a loaf pan. The dough was very wet and really didn't develop structure in my mixer (a sunbeam stand with 2 dough hooks). It required a couple of folds to start to behave. Matt loves the bread so next time I will bring out the bread maker which has been unloved since I developed a love for sourdough.
I am also struggling a bit with the pure theory of the baker. I was taught very strict rules about how many revolutions of the mixer and fermentation times. I also enjoy aspects of the Dan Lepard 'Handmade Loaf' style. Like most cooks I am a bowerbird picking up ideas and techniques from where ever I can find. Finding your own path that works in your own environment (I have 80% humidity and 32C for half the year) is half the fun. I am looking forward to Baking from the 'bread bible' but alas, Amazon/Australia Post has lost my order. Must wait a while to see if it turns up...

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Andrea, that's such exciting news! I've had to buy my cake flour at the US food store here in Melbourne and it's a little expensive, to be honest. Is the Anchor flour chlorinated like the US version? I shall be sure to look out for it in the shops when I'm next there!

In other news, my NKB turned out great--immense oven spring, but alas, the crust sat overnight and became quite soft. It hit 209 degrees when I took it out, I might try taking it a little later to dry it out a little more. FABULOUS crumb and texture, though. =)

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'How baking works' is aimed at bakery students. It is handy to simply have the different products explained such as the difference between cake, all purpose and bread flour (and most of the other members of the flour family). However it has a whole other level in regards to giving experiments on how subtle changes in ingredient change the end product. I really enjoy understanding how my ingredients work together. At an artisan baking course I did recently I got described as a food technologist by the Master Baker. Haven't earnt that title, but I do love to read and know how it all works.
In regards to bread flours Lauckes Wallaby is my favorite. It is stocked at Coles (but not all). Evidently you can ask them to order it in as it is on their product line. There is a thread on sourdough.com.au on where to find Lauckes flour in Melbourne.
In other Australian flour news Anchor have released a cake flour. It is unbleached with 6.4% protein. I became quite excited when I purchased a couple of boxes yesterday at Woolworths. This weekend cake baking will be done.

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Thanks Christine. A bread machine that makes jam is a very good idea :D

I didn't know that Simply no Knead has bread flour with that much gluten, thats about as much as KA Lancelot does!
I just bought a big bag of flour from Marg and Marees, after I finish it I'll hit Simply No Knead!

I've put risen dough in the fridge before with no complications, so I reckon it should be okay.
Many thanks for the tips.
a.

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Hi guys,

Hector, is it true that the Zojirushi will also make jam? My aunt had one which apparently did, but never used the function. After all the jam-talk on the other thread, perhaps it'd be an interesting experiment!

Ahona, how much protein does the Sir Lancelot have? Simply No Knead's high-protein bread flour has something in the range of 15-17% if I remember correctly which I imagine is plenty for a great bagel.

As for durum flour, I think I saw that at the Mediterranean grocer on Sydney Road, though I could be wrong. Try M&G Caifa at Victoria Market too, they're a great source for flours and the like. They're in the dairy and deli section.

Have to say, I've never seen anything other than the Laucke bread mixes either. I'd be curious to try their flour, though.

The cranberry-lemon teacake is a huge hit here at the office, and when I looked this morning the NKB had nearly doubled! I put it into the fridge, hope the extra time doesn't affect it too much!

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Thanks Christine.
I was after the Sir Lancelot high gluten mix for my bagels!

I might hit my neighbourhood bakery and see if they will sell me gluten. As to flour, I've heard really good things about Laucke-Wallaby flour, hard to track down though, Coles stocks their bread machine mixes but not the actual flour.

Any idea where I can track down durum flour?

I baked the olive oil bread ysterday and it was absolutely fantastic, going to give baking a rest for a bit (though I might bake a Nigella chocolate cake today) and then have a big weekend of cooking/baking ahead, with Christmas-in-July, cooking for a friend who is sick and a chocolate class at Essential Ingredient!
Its lovely speaking to other Melbouurne bakers :)
a.

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Theresa, and if the bread machine can also have a built in freezer then that will make a nice ice cream maker!

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Hector, hope you enjoy your new bread machine. I have an old Breadman that keeps on chugging along, but the Zojirushi is really supposed to be a great machine - programmable, etc. (I only use mine for dough, so I don't really have a need for anything fancier.) Keep in mind that there is a limit to how much dough you can produce at a time in the bread machine - you'll still want your heavy duty mixer for the big batches (um, when it's not filled to the brim with egg whites for biscuit de Savoie!).

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Hi Ahona,

Alas, as far as I know King Arthur Flour is strictly US only. As I understand it, no one brings it in and I'm not sure how Customs would take to it anyway. Perhaps I should try. =) Which KA flour do you mean? Did you mean a specific one like Harvest King?

As for wheat gluten, I'm still searching for that myself. I might try a few professional resources I have--certain products are only available to trade. If I find anything out, I'll be sure to let you know.

I've got a no-knead bread rising and a cranberry lemon tea-cake cooling as I write. The smell is tantalising and making me contemplate a midnight snack!

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Do you know where I can get KA flour Christine? Or wheat gluten?
Thanks!
a.

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Hi everyone!

Ahona, I find that most bread baking supplies are fairly easy to get here--I'm fortunate enough to do all my shopping at Vic Market. Otherwise, I can go to the Italian grocer on Sydney Road or order it from Simply No Knead. Haven't tried Marg and Maree's, though I've looked briefly at their website.

Andrea, I have a taste for American-style baked goods too, having lived there for a little bit as a child. Additionally, a lot of the books I used to learn about baking were American. I can't say I've really had too many problems, though sometimes searching for speciality ingredients is frustrating. Measurements are also sometimes frustrating, the whole cups/ounces/grams debate makes me wish everyone was conscientious enough to provide measurements in all three like Rose does!

How are you finding "How Baking Works"? I was curious but really, my library is probably too full as it is! =)

Rose, your Dad sounds simply wonderful! Kudos to him, he sounds as though he's still living life to the fullest.

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Thanks for replying Rose! I hope you're having a great vacation :)

I'm glad you included that bread, it helps to have some recipes that are a little more challenging, gives you something to aspire to!
I have your olive oil bread rising outside (in the sun) as we speak, and made some pizza dough and olive bread yesterday, both of which were absolutely fantastic!
Looking forward to seeing how you go with making this foccacia in a fp!

Your book has really inspired me to delve into the more technical aspects of cooking/baking, which I always avoided in the past! So thank you for that Rose and also for many many fantastic recipes I'm itching to dig into.

As an aside, one of my foodiest friends has the cake bible and made me a cake from it for my birthday this year, chocolate torture, and it was the best chocolate cake I have *ever* eaten. Though I felt so sick by the end of two slices :D
a.

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Ahona, i'm on vacation right now but saw your posting and cannot resist the temptation of a brief response. this bread is simple yet probably the trickiest bread in the book. it requires a flour that has enough protein and of the extensible sort to stretch and long beaing with a powerful stand mixer. i don't think the food processor can accomplish this but i'm really insterested in trying when i get the time. good idea to add high gluten flour to 00 but it will take experimentation. i'm glad you have gone on to try other of the breads as there are many far less bizarre and far more gratifying! had i realized all the problems pple would have with the focaccia i would never have put it in the book.
my 93 year old dad watched me make the baby no knead bread and said it is the first bread he will make when he gets home. i hope not--it looks so simple but is so hard to handle because it is so wet and sticky. it's another one of these deceptively simple yet super tricky breads--ironically or perhaps not coincidentally from the same baker--jim leahy--of the sullivan street bakery. fun when you get it right--totally frustrating when not!

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Cool, thanks for that tip Andrea.

I haven't really found much of a difference while using cookbooks from the US/UK, except with regards to some ingredients that are harder to find here, like KA flour.

And the teaspoon measurement of course :D
Whats on everyones list today? I want to try brioche dough and heart of wheat bread!

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I am also in Australia (Darwin). I lived in the US until I was 13, so I have a taste for styles of baked goods from those shores.
There is a thread crossing the Atlantic by cookbook that may help explain some of the conversions in ingredients.
Also, I recently bought on Amazon 'How Baking Works' by Paula Figoni, which amoungst other things explains exactly what the differences are in flour, sugar and other baking ingredients which makes finding substitutions a bit easier.

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I am just about to get the Zo BBCCX20. Does anybody have any comparison with other brands? Panasonic, Breadman, etc?

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Andi Fishman
Andi Fishman
07/ 2/2007 09:45 AM

Hi Rose,
Happy 4th to you and Elliot,
I love my first and old dak bread machine.(still working well).....the smells in the house are wonderful and really Rose, the texture and taste are delish.....
Have a great summer.
smiles,
Andi*

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Hi Christine!
Its good to hear from another bread baker in Australia! I'm in Melbourne too.

Food processor, thank goodness, is okay. Dont think the overuse harmed it. KA has a function that turns it off if it overheats and mine didn't, so I assume it was still within normal temperature limits.

How are you going with finding bread supplies in Melbourne?
I bought some flour from Marg and Marees today, they seem to have a good selection with a decent gluten content. Lots of seeds as well, for multigrain bread :)
a.

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Hi guys,

I'm sorry your foccacia didn't work out, Ahona, I do agree with Richard that the low gluten content might be at fault. How long was the food processor running? If it was a while, the heat may also have damaged it.

I'm sure though, that a hand mixer wouldn't be able to make the dough--you usually have to go twice as long with a handmixer than a stand mixer, and I don't think they've made one that beefy yet. Also, beaters can't knead the dough--they don't generate enough friction.

Just out of curiosity, where in Australia are you? I'm in Melbourne and am curious to know how other Australian bakers are doing baking out of books from overseas.

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Thanks Richard. I dont think I'm going to be trying this one again until I have a stand mixer to work with. My KA fp heated up and started smelling really chemically and strange so I turned it off.

I could mix highr gluten flour with the Italian flour I was using, next time I give this a shot I will do so.

On a more positive note, I tried the olive bread today as well as the pizza dough and both of them were brilliant!
Thanks for your help, much appreciated.
a.

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I think that you're right and that the low gluten content sunk this one. I've made the foccacia a number of times, and I don't think that a food processor would have enough contact with the dough to work the gluten. Maybe a hand mixer would do it? When I've made it, I've had to beat for about 30 minutes with my stand mixer to get it to ball up. My main concern here would be that the hand mixer would be on too long and overheat.

What about mixing bread flour with your low gluten flour to balance out the gluten content?

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Hi Rose
I had a question about a bread from your book the Bread Bible and couldn't find anywhere else to put it. I would love your input and help.

It is the rosemary foccacia, the douh with 113% water. That was the first recipe I tried from your book and it didn't work at all. However, I think a few things I did contributed to it. I didn't use a stand mixer because I dont have one, used a food processor instead and the dough never came together into a smooth ball. Also, the flour I used was Italian 00 flour with a gluten content of 9.5%. No KA to be found here in Aus :(

I followed all your instructions and the dough rose, but then deflated and never rose again during the final proving. Was the low gluten content of the flour to blame for this? Is there any way to make this bread without a stand mixer?
Thanks :)
Ahona

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it's Zojirushi - no "r"

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I've use a bread machine for quite a few years. I also hand shape and finish the bread in the oven. One tip, if you are going to bake in the machine remove the dough blades before the final rise. This way you don't have to dig them out of the finished loaf.

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