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Recipe substitutions when using different pans
Posted: 16 October 2009 05:36 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Is there a rule of thumb for how to tweak a recipe’s baking powder or soda if your going to a larger pan or smaller?

I know its recommended not to but how do I substitute pans in a recipe? My go to pans are cupcake pans, and 9 x 2 pans. I see in the back of RHC Rose gives how many cups of batter go into each sized pan but I find when I use a different pan, even if make the right amount of batter,  the cake texture, or moisture is way off.  I’m not a big fan of bundt pans lookwise, is it possible to make a mini version of fluted pan by placing a core in the center of a cake pan? 

Lastly, I noticed i RHC Rose inserted a nail head in a cake. Is that to let you know when a cake is done baking or does that act like a core?

If there is a thread on these topics or advice I do appreciate it.

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Posted: 16 October 2009 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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yesishop - 16 October 2009 08:36 PM

Is there a rule of thumb for how to tweak a recipe’s baking powder or soda if your going to a larger pan or smaller?

In The Cake Bible there is a table in the section outlining how to multiply the recipes out so that the final batter reflects the amount of batter in reference to pan diameter and the adjusted baking powder amounts, listed as “The Rose Factor,” somewhere around page 492 (don’t ask me WHY I remember the page number).  There is an easy-to-use method of adding differing amounts of baking powder to each layer for different diameters of pans for multi-tiered cakes spelled out in the text: to quote Rose, “...its easier to do than to describe…”

yesishop - 16 October 2009 08:36 PM

...I noticed i RHC Rose inserted a nail head in a cake. Is that to let you know when a cake is done baking or does that act like a core?

I assume it is to act as a heat sink to help bake larger cakes so they bake more evenly (and the edges are not done too soon during normal baking time for larger cakes when used with baking strips).  I don’t know that I would try the following with a light-colored or acidic cake batter (or any egg foam btter with either vinegar or cream of tarter), but potatoes cook much more quickly when baking using a large aluminum nail (like those used in gutters at roof edges) inserted through the raw potato; the aluminum acts to conduct heat into the core of the potato from the oven to significantly cut baking time.

Hmmmm…  a big fat 2” long aluminum spike conducts heat better (more quickly) than a stainless steel nail would, and wouldn’t leave a big hole like a heating core does (seems that some folks always have an issue with a filled spot in the cake).


Hope This Helps.

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Posted: 16 October 2009 11:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Perfect I’m picking up a copy of cake bible from library and I will copy that page.

As for the nail head, the one Rose uses is a nail head used for piping roses while you rotate it.  It doesn’t seem like a regular nail at all. But the pictures in RHC really doesn’t describe the specific use or which cakes at least that I saw.  When I bake, the center of cake is always jiggly even though it should be done baking. Wondering if anyone has tried it or when its needed.

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Posted: 17 October 2009 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Zabella, the flower nail is used to conduct heat to the center of the cake.  I think Patrincia may be the originator of that trick! 

If your centers are underbaked, the nail may help, but you may also need to adjust your oven temp and/or use cake strips to even out the rate at which the edges and center bake.  I can say from experience that heat cores that are lightweight or without a flared base (like the large, flat head of the nail) tend to rise along with the cake and turn into a mess, falling sideways, allowing batter underneath, etc.

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Posted: 17 October 2009 02:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Thanks Julie - I’m not the originator of that trick, but I found it online many years ago.

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Posted: 17 October 2009 09:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Thanks for the tip. I went and bought a heat core when I start to cook larger cakes.  I also have cake strips.  And finally received my TCB copy from the library and next week I"m baking the chocolate tomato cake I think this one should turn out well.

Julie love the cake on your avatar it looks so elegant.

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Posted: 19 October 2009 02:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Happy baking!  I would object to bake any of the bundt cakes on a layer cake pan (ie: 10 cup bundt tube pan on a 9” or 12” round pan), unless mentioned.  Because you may experience a loss of texture so most defenitelly wonderfull for Rose’s recipes her trademark!  RHC does give layer versions for her favorite cakes, these are on the wedding cake chapter.  I’ve baked these all -) and assure you at first trial a beautiful layer cake, flat gorgeous, evenly baked, and moist.

You could do some experimentation with the example of Cake Bible’s grand marnier chocolate chip cake which calls for a bundt tube pan and compare the recipe with the same baked as layer on RHC grand marnier wedding cake.  There are evident tweaks on baking powder and type of flour.  Rose worked very hard to write this recipe from bundt to layer.

An equivalent to a 10 cup bundt tube cake is a standard rectanfular loaf pan.  The geometry is the same:  the distance between the center tube and the sides is the same as the loaf pan width.

Moreover, I have a feeling Rose considers cake texture as sacred, and she does indicate that any layer pan wider than 12” suffers on texture.

EVERYONE, as I bake away, please ise Baker’s Joy.  It is the best, gives you perfect release and it doesn’t smell bad.  I am having a case sent by boat directly from bakers joy online, unfortunatelly in Hawaii, it isn’t carried by the major supermarkets and you can’t travel with this by air!  Baker’s joy seems to never go bad.

Happy baking.  /H

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Posted: 19 October 2009 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Hector-

Thanks for the loaf pan tip. I’m assuming a 8 1/2 in. loaf pan can be used for any recipe that calls for a 6 cup fluted tube pan without tweaking the recipe??

Also, I couldn’t find the measurements of what is a standard loaf pan size that has a 10 cup volume.  And would I have to reduce the amount of batter I make?

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Posted: 19 October 2009 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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U r correct, need to scale the recipe.  Measure the volume in cups of your loaf pan.  I am unsure if there is a standard loaf size…

Ideally you could bake two loaf pans from one 10 cup bundt.

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Posted: 19 October 2009 01:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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hectorwong - 19 October 2009 05:38 AM

I would object to bake any of the bundt cakes on a layer cake pan (ie: 10 cup bundt tube pan on a 9” or 12” round pan), unless mentioned.  Because you may experience a loss of texture so most defenitelly wonderfull for Rose’s recipes her trademark!  RHC does give layer versions for her favorite cakes, these are on the wedding cake chapter.  I’ve baked these all -) and assure you at first trial a beautiful layer cake, flat gorgeous, evenly baked, and moist.  /H

Hector, you say not to bake recipes for 10 cup bundt in layer cakes.  What about 3D pans?  I have a Wilton star pan that holds 10 cups.  My niece wants a marble cake for her birthday and I was planning to bake the Velvet Marble Cake from RHC using that pan and possibly adding a rose nail in the middle.  You don’t think that would work?  Any suggestion for substitution (maybe the pound cake from TCB instead, with a 1/3 of the batter mixed in with melted chocolate)? 

Sorry, I didn’t mean to hijack the thread but it’s a related subject to the topic.  Thanks!

Jess

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Posted: 19 October 2009 01:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Rose gives three loaf pan sizes on p 456 TCB. The 4-cup (8x4x2.5) is probably thought of as the “standard” loaf pan for bread and cake loaves. It holds about 1 1/2 lb. The 8-cup (9x5x3) is also a useful size and will hold 2 lb. batter or dough.

Chicago Metallic has a Pain de Mie pan most often used to make sandwich bread that measures 13x4x4. Comes with a lid and is sometimes called a Pullman pan. My guess is that it would hold 12 to 16 cups. Available from King Arthur’s online shop.

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Posted: 19 October 2009 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Jess, I would say that one of Rose’s strengths is giving us the information we need to understand her recipes so we can adapt them to our baking goals. She doesn’t just give us recipes that we have to follow by rote. She teaches us how to bake! This is perhaps a little more obvious in the Cake Bible with its Rose Factor section in the wedding cake chapter. But also generally, she will mention variations that are possible, what adjustments you have to make and encourages us to experiment and learn. Gradually you gain the understanding and confidence needed to attempt some of those adjustments yourself.

I did a round cake version of Rose’s new Chocolate Velvet Fudge cake, which she designed for a 10-cup fluted tube pan. It worked beautifully. But it did involve scaling the recipe up (x 1.33 for a 9”). I knew that’s how much batter I needed by looking at Rose’s master chart for her base chocolate cake (identical cake in terms of ingredients). I also knew that I would have to change the baking time. There, the chart for butter cakes on p 490 TCB was a huge help.

I’m not familiar with the star pan you’d like to use. But seems to me, the real trick there would be estimating the baking time. hmm hmmm  Maybe there are others who have used the pan and could give you guidelines. What about posting your question as a separate thread, so it comes to people’s attention more readily?

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Posted: 19 October 2009 02:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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I yet have to do both, the marble cake or the star pan.  I don’t think anything terrible will happen, and cake will always be delicious.  Most won’t mind a humped or fallen center or some loss in texture.  I would do a side by side comparison, after all, you only need to own one bundt tube pan, 10 cup, and that is interchangeably for the many RHC recipes calling for such pan.  After all the bundt pan is the most popular pan found in the usa.

I hope you noticed that RHC recipes for the bundt gives you a full size cake, beautifully risen to the top and level.  You get all the markings including the very top edges.  Traditionally, bundt recipes dome and don’t rise fully.  The pictures on RHC are real, these are not 15 cup batters overfilled and then heavilly trimmed.

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Posted: 19 October 2009 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Thanks, guys.  I have a fluted 10-cup bundt but I want to use the star pan specifically for my niece’s birthday.  I’ll do a test velvet marble cake on both to see if there’s a difference.  I still have a couple of weeks before her birthday.

Jess

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Posted: 19 October 2009 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Jessjoe

I’d be curious to see how it turns out can you post your results? Thats why I started the thread b/c I made the marble velvet cake in a 9 inch pan and in a smaller 3d bear pan (with no core).  I could have underbeaten as others suggested, nonetheless I ‘d say the entire center of the cake crumbled to bits. Bear’s head broke off twice. I ended up going with pound cake for 3d ...didn’t care for the taste though.  I hope your star pan works because the marble cake was delicious despite the crumbling.

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Posted: 19 October 2009 03:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Zabella, I will post back when I finish.  Hopefully in a couple of days.

Jess

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