basic sourdough recipe using a liquid starter
Posted: 20 January 2010 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]
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I am in need of a basic sourdough recipe using liquid starter.  I used the recipe from TBB and converted my liquid starter to stiff, but I am looking to cut out that step.  I can’t understand the instructions how to rewrite the existing recipe to use a liquid starter.  CAn someone help?

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Posted: 21 January 2010 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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No one can help?  Please?

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Posted: 22 January 2010 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Hi there, I honestly don’t know the answer to your question, but I can tell you who might.  hectorwong, Gene, and Carolita (screen names) are all good with bread.  I’ll send them a PM on your behalf and direct them to this post.  Give them a little time to respond, then check back. 

Good Luck!

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Posted: 22 January 2010 10:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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I looked at this question earlier in the week and wasn’t able to help for a couple of good reasons. One is that I don’t have TBB, so can’t tell you how to rewrite the particular recipe (or understand its instructions?) for use with a liquid starter. In any case, the poster wants to skip a step that another of our exceptionally knowledgeable members advised taking. That is, convert to a stiff starter and go from there, following Rose’s instructions.

Did you see Annie’s reply to your other post on Monday? Not sure why you want to skip the step, jspiegs. But can tell you that Annie probably knows more about sourdough than all of us put together! She turns out tons of sourdough loaves every week in a wood fired oven. Gorgeous loaves. Her advice is really worth heeding. Then you have a proven recipe to follow in TBB. All of Rose’s recipes are excellent. That’s a good place to start to make a respectable sourdough loaf.

If you want to play around with other recipes that use a more fully hydrated starter, why not? There are lots of them around. Visit any of the top websites dedicated to bread. Get additional books. Consult with your public librarian, if you can’t identify a good one that fits with your learning goals and level of experience. And if you’re still floundering, take a course. Sourdough’s not really that hard, but it does take the willingness to learn its special requirements.

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Posted: 22 January 2010 12:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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If you are using Rose’s recipes, you are still going to end up converting to a stiff starter by the time you have expanded through the initial feedings, but if you want to begin the first step using a liquid starter, you would need:

33 grams of starter (25 times 1.333)
Remove 8 grams of water from the recipe

The difference is very slight at this step.


Alternately, if you really wanted to do all of the expansions in the liquid state, in the final recipe you would need (and this example is given in the book):

200 grams starter (150 times 1.333)
Remove 50 grams of water from the recipe

If you are working by volume instead of weight, Rose suggests it is easier to start from a stiff starter.

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Posted: 22 January 2010 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Imo, a stiff starter is easier to maintain, keeps refrigerated and u only feed it once a week.  U can also freeze it.

Not sure if this helps, if u are looking for a basic easy bread, Luca has reworked TBB basic heart bread with the book instructions on how to convert a yeast bread into sourdough.  It is fantastic.  The final tweaking was to increase/reduce the amount of water, depending how chewy you want the bread or what type of flour.

I have further reworked this to the easiest sourdough bread I know to make, and indeed is the easiest bread in general to make!  100 gr stiff starter, 400 gr bread flour, 200 gr water, 10 gr salt.  First, stir water and salt, add flour, stir till roughly incorporated. Add the starter cut in 6 pieces.  Knead with a stand mixer for 5 minutes till a dough ball forms, clinging to the dough hook or detaching from the bowl.  Place on a lightly greased loaf.  Cover with wrap or with a plastic box.  Rise till doubled.  Punch down, reshape, and rise till tripled.

Bake at 450 or so.  Unpreheated oven!  The crust won’t be spectacular, but the bread is.

Note the first rising take about 8 hours.  The second about 2.

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Posted: 22 January 2010 04:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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ok—-you have me all convinced to switch to a stiff starter smile  Thank you for all your replies.

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Posted: 01 February 2010 01:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Hector—I would like to try your recipe mentioned in the post above.  Does the 100 g stiff starter come right from the frig? or 1 hour at room temp?  or fed and risen 1 or 2 times?
TIA!
- Jennifer

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Posted: 01 February 2010 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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it doesn’t matter to me.  right from the fridge, or 1 hour at room temp, or fed and risen 1 or 2 times.  in that order, it will just make your bread dough rise slower to faster.

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Posted: 17 March 2010 09:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Hello Everyone. I just joined the forum. Sourdough is my speciality.
A few points to help you:
Liquid starters ferment faster than stiff starters assuming same conditions (temp, flour, feeding schedule). They reach maturity faster and so need to be used, refreshed or stored (cold) before a stiff starter. This affects the timing of your breadmaking.
Liquid starters (assuming similar conditions - feeding schedule, temperature, flour type) contain higher yeast populations than stiffer starters assuming they areboth at maturity.
Acid production in a liquid starter tends to be more lactic than a stiffer starter which tends to have higher amounts of acetic acid. Acetic acid is vinegar, lactic is a softer acid so influences taste of bread.

Aside from these points obviously you adjust quantities of flour/water in your final dough to reflect the fact that a liquid starter has more water.

Liquid starter is generally 100-150% hydration.

In my experience a liquid starter gives a lighter bread with subtle taste and has the benefits of a chewy crumb and good-keeping qualities that you get from sourdough

Hope this helps you

Rossa

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Posted: 17 March 2010 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Thank you rossa. I have made hectors bread recipe with stiff starter with good results. Do you have any recipes that use the liquid?  I’d like to try with liquid to compare.

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Posted: 17 March 2010 12:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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There are an infinitely possible number of recipes for bread:

I went to work in France and I worked with the best bakers - this is what I found and what I do myself now in my bakery.

The best bread comes from soft doughs - depending on the flour you use (mainly the protein level) this means 70-80% hydration. 1 Kg flour , 700-800ml water. Salt - usually 1-1.2% of the total dough. You choose. I prefer 1%.

So when your starter is ready you simply subtract what is in it (i.e liquid starter 150g flour, 150ml water for example) - so for the above dough is 1kg - 150g flour = 850g flour and 750ml (for example) - 150ml = 600ml water. Salt 19g for example.

How you treat your starter (i.e storage temp and how often you feed it, stiff vs. liquid) determines how many yeast cells are in it and therefore ready to make a light bread - that’s what I want. I don’t like sour, heavy bread.

So I choose a liquid starter (benefits yeast, minimises acetic acid, also easy to read - a good starter becomes full of tiny bubbles on the surface, new ones rise gently to the surface as you watch it, starts to form gentle creases on the surface - such a starter is ready to make the highest quality sourdough bread. It should look just like a Poolish - liquid yeast fermentation. Same rules apply for judging when it is ready.

Storing starters in the fridge makes them sluggish - it is true that you can be careful about exactly when you put it in the fridge and for how long but you will not get as active a starter that is fed every day.

Remember you can use tiny amounts - one teaspoon starter, add 2 tablespoons water and 2 tablespoons flour. Let it get really bubbly (speed depends on the initial health of your starter, room temp, dough temp.). It can be left somewhere cool overnight once it is ripe or put in fridge. Next day do the same feeding.

Sure you can leave it 2 days in the fridge but then take it out the day before baking, feed, feed again at night and again the following morning. Then it will be very active.

What I do in my bakery and I get a very high quality bread - Day before feed starter in the morning. Leave it get very bubbly 7-8 hours approx. , then I add flour and water to the starter (to give you an idea of the activity of my starter I use 5% starter for the overnight - i.e 50g starter, 475g flour, 475g water. (50g is 5% of 1Kg total starter). In the morning it is full of bubbles and risen. I take the 1 Kilo and add 1 Kg Flour 1 Kg water = 3 Kg starter. Leave 4-5 hours. It rises up full of bubbles. I then add 4.2 Kg flour, 2.8 Litres Water , 100g salt. Mix. Dough Temp ideal is 25-26 celsius. Leave 1 hour. It starts to rise already in 1 hour. Weigh. Rest. Shape. Proove on linen for about 2 hours. It more than doubles in size. Oven. Bread has large airholes, very mild sourdough taste, lovely warmth in the taste and keeps very well.

Starters - I aim to make them around 24-25 celsius. Bakery temp is around 25 celsius - cools overnight.

In the above example I use 3 kg final starter (what the French call Levain de Tout Point) for a final 10 Kilo dough. starter is 30% of the final dough. If it was 10% you need to wait more than 1 hour before weighing etc. If it was 50% you would start weighing after approx 30 mins.

In my bakery I obviously use larger amounts 70kg dough etc.

You must understand there is no fixed recipe. Look after your starter (daily or every 2 day feedings), remember the rule the more starter the quicker it ferments and the sooner you need to feed it. As you can see I use 5% overnight. If I did 20% the starter would be too fermented the next day - a sourdough starter or dough that ferments too much becomes acidic (slows yeast and enzymes start to liquify the gluten - flatter loaf).

Best English book I have come across for real understanding is Dan Wing Bread Builders - he has no recipes but teaches you to understand and to become master of what you are doing.

Look at http://www.boulangerie-patisserie.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6647 - a French baker who really inspired me. His bread is really in a special league. Look how soft his dough is.

Good luck with baking!

Rossa

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Posted: 17 March 2010 12:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Made a mistake - I use 1.1% salt in relation to total dough i.e 550g Salt for 50 Kilos dough.

Rossa smile

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Posted: 17 March 2010 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Rossa, Thank you so much for taking the time to post this.  Fabulous information and very clear!  Where is your bakery located?  I agree re the Daniel Wing book.  I have to say I let my starters ripen at a cooler temp than you but then it takes more time.  I have to co-ordinate with the WFO being ready so it works for me.  Thanks again.

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Posted: 17 March 2010 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Hi Annie. I have a bakery in Dublin, Ireland. I see that you are in Scotland.

Glad you found the post interesting.

I translated an article on Levain from the great Belgian baker Marc Dewalque - send me your email address if you want me to send you a copy.

Bye

Rossa

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