~FRESHKID - 13 May 2010 12:29 PM

Charles, go get your copy of the cake bible. Go to page 67. Read there 1/2 cup cake flour “UN~SIFTED” & it says it weighs 2.25, oz.

I am very familiar with the problem of volume measurement when comparing sifted vs unsifted flour.  We’re not talking about that.  We’re talking about weight measurements. 

You aren’t really noting a difference between sifted and unsifted flour, rather you’re observing that the sifter steals a bit of the flour.  It probably does, but I haven’t found it to be significant, certainly nothing like the 10% you’re proposing. I pound and shake the sifter to get the last poof of dust.    But it is wise to emphasize to the baker how important this is.

I find this very confusing!  This morning I deliberately weighed out 10.5 ozs. of flour on my digital scales.  I then sifted that amount and weighed it again.  It weighed EXACTLY the same, 10.5 ozs.  I thought because of what you hinted, that the amount would have been SLIGHTLY different but NO, it was exactly the same.  I would like others to do this small experiment just to prove I’m not going mad.

jeannette - 13 May 2010 01:12 PM

amount would have been SLIGHTLY different but NO, it was exactly the same

If your scale is accurate to the nearest 1/10 of an ounce, the weight might be off a gram or two and the scale will still round to the same number.  And a gram or two at most is what I’d expect a sifter to steal, unless you’re really careless.  I mean, the 1.5 ounces of missing flour that FreshKid suggested is 42 grams, which is about 1/3 of a cup!!  Not possibe.

So for the home cook or any cook for that matter, 1 gram thereabouts is not going to make a difference to a recipe, is it?  One ounce might but not one gram!

I mean no disrespect to anyone but I am hoping to clarify a couple of things. 

The confusion may seem to be the use of ounces for weight and the use of ounces for volume.  For volume measurement, it is usually referred to as fluid ounces.  One fluid ounce of something does not necessarily mean one ounce (by weight) of that item.  According to Wayne Glissen in the Professional Baking book that FK is referring to, the only exception is water, eggs, and milk.

Ounce as a volume measurement is typically just used for liquid.

I suspect that what FK is referring to is that if you sift in a measuring cup with fluid ounce measurement, once you reach 10.5 oz (by volume which is fluid ounces), it may not necessarily be 10.5 ounces by weight.

However, in Rose’s books, anytime it is referred to as ounces, she means weight.  So, like Charles was saying, whether you sift it before or after, it does not matter because the weight remains constant.  So if you are weighing before you sift, you weigh 10.5 oz of flour, then you sift it.  After you sift it (all of it, everything that has been scaled), the weight of that flour is still 10.5 ounces.

If you decide to sift it beforehand, sift your flour, put a bowl on a scale, set to zero (tare), start adding sifted flour to the scale until you get to 10.5 ounces.  In both methods, the weight of your flour will be 10.5 ounces.

Where sifting before or after matters is if you are using volume measurements, in which case, Rose’s recipes typically measures flour by cups.  If the recipe says sifted flour, then you sift over a cup and then carefully level the cup with a knife.  If the recipe says unsifted flour, then you put flour on the cup, level it, then sift it.  the weight of these two cups of flour will be different because the first one is aerated and therefore less dense than the second cup which will be heavier.

Rose has a video about weighing flours that could be helpful: http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2010/02/baking_magic_tips_weighing_flo.html

Hope I didn’t cause more confusion.

Jess

Thank you Jess.  No you haven’t caused more confusion, not to me anyway, in fact you have made it more understandable.  As a Brit I am more comfortable with weighing than measuring for recipes, I had no experience of cup measurements until acquiring various American baking books, all of ours use weights.

jeannette - 13 May 2010 01:36 PM

So for the home cook or any cook for that matter, 1 gram thereabouts is not going to make a difference to a recipe, is it?  One ounce might but not one gram!

1 gram is a big variation in something like baking powder or soda, where you’re using on the order of 6 or 7 grams of it.  But a cup of flour weighs in the 100-130 grams range, so you’re talking less than 1% error.  One ounce weight, however, is 28.35 grams, so that’s a huge difference.

JESSJOSE:
  Good afternoon to you. Thank you for the assist. Perhaps my english composition probably was lacking & most likely It is I take full fault for it. In any event my point is & was that there is a large differance in cups of flour when after sifting as opposed to before sifting. In 10.5 oz of sifted flour it will fit into 3, cups. 10.5, oz of flour requires close to 2.4 cups of flour. there is a large variance. This is why there are cake baking disaters every now & then. I was hoping I could succeed in making the forum members aware of this technicque. I probably failed. Anyway enjoy the rest of the day Jess.

  ~FRESHKID.

Linda - I also had problems with overflowing when I put 50 g (weight, what else) of batter in my muffin pans, the only one that came out right was the one where I scooped up the leftovers of the dough. I think I’ll go with 35 g the next time.

Freshkid at al: I think it’s scary to measure baking ingredients by volume - isn’t the first thing you think when you read 1 oz of flour that it’s 32 g, as opposed to a half shot glass? By the time you set the shot glass down a little too hard the flour will deflate, sifted or unsifted…. That’s why I never trusted American baking books until I came across Rose’s books.

The only way(weigh!) to go is with the scales!

Exactly, Jeannette! We’re Europeans, I guess. Btw, this thread made me laugh very hard!

~FRESHKID - 13 May 2010 12:29 PM

CHARLES T:
  Good morning to you. I will do my best to explain about flour sifting. Which by the way is one of the causes of why our amateur bakers have baking failures when using the very sensitive 2 stage mixing method that is employed in RLB cake books.

  When the recipe calls for 10.5 oz of SIFTED cake flour you drop cake flour into your sifter & sift till you get 10. 5, oz. However, to get this amount you will use approx 12, oz of flour.
  If you weigh out 10.5, oz of cake flour first & then SIFT you will end up with less weight approx. 8.5, oz of cake flour.

  Charles, go get your copy of the cake bible. Go to page 67. Read there 1/2 cup cake flour “UN~SIFTED” & it says it weighs 2.25, oz.
  Now turn to page 32, “SIFTED CAKE FLOUR” 1, cup weighs 3.5, oz.
  Charles notice the variance. If 1/2 cup UNSIFTED weighs 2.25 oz then 1, cup SIFTED should weigh 4.5, oz….but it doesn’t.
If you or any of our forum members have this baking book “PROFESSIONAL BAKING by WAYNE GISSLEN in the 2nd edin the back of the book it is located in the 3rd APPENDIx. In the 3rd ed it in the 4th APPENDIX. There he says that cake flour sifted weighs 3.75, oz….. unsifted it weighs 4.5, oz do you see the differances. Now then the reason why 1, cup of flour varies between RLB’S numbers & in Prof baking book is that they are using the weights that were furnished by their flour millers. Some say that their cake flour weighs 4 1/4 oz per cup & others say their flour weighs 4.5, oz per cup. If any of our readers has book please verify this information in a posting.

  Bottom line Charles, In order to arrive at 10.5 of cake flour… We must be able to follow the directions on WHEN TO SIFT”.

I hope I made it easy to understand & it proves helpful to our forum members. Enjoy the rest of the day Charles.

Hi Cass -  I was looking once again for the conundrum of weighing eggs this morning and somehow ended up here, another of the same. This exchange has been interesting. For example, the recipe I am about to bake now [Bernachon Palet d’Or Gateau in RHC] happens to call for

“Batter: Cake flour (or all-purpose flour): Volume - 1.5 c. plus 1 T.(or 1 1/3c), sifted into the cup and leveled off.  Weight: 5.5 oz./ 156 grams”.

My intention, with this in mind, was to go to my trusty scale and sift the flour into the tared bowl until it reached 156 grams of cake flour and then to continue with the cake.

How about our pages? Best, joan

  ~FRESHKID.