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Genoise—heavy bottom layer ( w/pic )—what went wrong?
Posted: 18 May 2009 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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~FRESHKID - 18 May 2009 03:57 PM

JOANIE:
  Good morning. I found the film clip on Meringues/beating egg whites for you. They also show cake decorations as well…if you know how to locate it. Very interesting website I think.
  Good luck Joanie, enjoy the rest of the day my friend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVcNDhwwFB8

~CASS.

Cass! I really learned a lot from the sugar information. First that I have been using superfine sugar, and not ultrafine bakers sugar which I couldn’t find here, believe it or not. I had just recently become aware that I was having a problem with whipping stages because of some info by Hector re the White Genoise, and adding ingredients just before the soft stage and the firm stage so as to incorporate the flour. The epi youtube was also very instructive. I would certainly recommend these two pieces of information to any neophyte like me, who is blundering through egg white whipping no. 1. Thank you for being your marvelous self.  >’ . ‘<  joan

[pls bear with me, trying to learn how to use this quote procedure]

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Posted: 18 May 2009 08:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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~FRESHKID - 11 May 2009 03:01 PM

JOAN:
  Good morning Joanie my friend. I am sorry to learn of your baking disappoints. downer  I have something to say about this problem. I have never baked one these cakes in this book. I am not a fan of the 2 stage mixing method. It is best if it be left to prof. bakers who do this sort of recipes all day long. But for us Amateurs the simplest way is to employ the creaming method it is very effective & it is very forgiving of blunders as well. (Most often)

  Joanie, only what you have described in your post, I believe the batter wasn’t mixed properly. There is quite a bit of gran. sugar in this recipe I believe the flour has a problem with absorbing it.
  In any event I hope you will locate another recipe. If not I will see if I have one in my files for you.
  Enjoy the rest of the day my friend

~ CASS.

Yes, Cass, I think it does in final analysis reflect on my batter/whipping/folding technique! You are right on - as usual blank stare

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Posted: 18 May 2009 09:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Julie - 18 May 2009 02:53 AM

Joan, I read your description of Gen au chocolate #2, I’ll try to help.

Oil amount sounds fine, Rose mentions 40g as the weight of 3T oil, so no worries there, and it sounds like your flour incorporated beautifully, no pellets (a few are OK, they just get trimmed off, you just don’t want lots).

Egg weights- you matched the shelled weight to the recipe, right?  The recipe doesn’t give weights for eggs still in their shells. 

Egg foam- do not beat any longer than 5 minutes on high, to beat the extra 2 minutes you need to turn the mixer down to medium. 

You placed the cake directly on a baking stone?  I sometimes leave a stone in the bottom of my oven, but the cake goes on a rack just above that (still in the lower third). 

Your oven sounds like it could be running hot if the cake was starting to shrink from the sides at 20”.  The cake is done when it starts to shrink, you can take it out then.

My suggestions:
-If you are going to keep trying, stick with gen au choc or switch to the classic genoise.  That way, you’ll keep working on whole egg foams, which are different than all yolk or all white foams.
-Weigh eggs out of their shell.
-Whip eggs 5” on high, then 2” medium.
-Use baking strips, turn your oven down 25F, and bake on a rack in the lower third of your oven.

Do let us know how you fare if you try again!  We’re crossing our fingers for you!

Julie: Thanks again for your generosity of spirit. I keep telling my friends, ‘even if you don’t bake, just stop by for a while and enjoy a place with true civility, caring, support - not to mention expertise!
Back to your message, most about the 4 genoises au choc seems to be okay, except my folding - or the oven and actual baking. I used oil in one, beurre noisette in others. Tsugar trick on one and not others. I did use the strips but can’t remember if I reduced the temp. I did bake on the stone in lower third 2x. The eggs were mixed together and I removed a small bit on the scale. Next time I will put stone on bottom and rack on lower third, reduce the oven 25o.

Before I received your kind msg, I had already made a lateral move last week to the White Genoise, whereupon similar things began to rear their ugly heads. Hector’s White Genoise rules that one must begin adding just before the soft peaks phase and before stiff peaks phase helped me see. And, of course Cass had already pin-pointed this batter problem for me. I had let the whites go over and they couldn’t incorporate flour. Since this aha, I haven’t had opportunitiy to try it again. I think Hector makes an excellent point when he states that this white genoise is “the ultimate practice to learn how to properly whip egg whites.”  This is why I am trying it right now instead of classique. Before it’s over, with everyone’s help, I will do them all.  >’ . ‘<

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Posted: 18 May 2009 10:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Joan - 18 May 2009 10:07 PM
~FRESHKID - 18 May 2009 03:57 PM

JOANIE:
  Good morning. I found the film clip on Meringues/beating egg whites for you. They also show cake decorations as well…if you know how to locate it. Very interesting website I think.
  Good luck Joanie, enjoy the rest of the day my friend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVcNDhwwFB8

~CASS.

Cass! I really learned a lot from the sugar information. First that I have been using superfine sugar, and not ultrafine bakers sugar which I couldn’t find here, believe it or not. I had just recently become aware that I was having a problem with whipping stages because of some info by Hector re the White Genoise, and adding ingredients just before the soft stage and the firm stage so as to incorporate the flour. The epi youtube was also very instructive. I would certainly recommend these two pieces of information to any neophyte like me, who is blundering through egg white whipping no. 1. Thank you for being your marvelous self.  >’ . ‘<  joan
Cass - PS: The sugar info also stated that one should not whirl sugar in the processor because “pulverized sugar results in chopped-up sugar crystals that will not perform well.” Of course I had been doing that.

[pls bear with me, trying to learn how to use this quote procedure]

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Posted: 23 May 2009 09:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Barbara - I think our genoise fascination is fun. For myself, it is an opportunity to learn techniques, I think. The genoise is the place I have chosen, out of my usual sense of perversity, to learn. I believe that the problems I have relate to lack of experience, which relate to lack of good judgement. After reading Hector’s remarks about the whipping of egg-whites for the white genoise, I found myself standing there, staring into a whirling mass of foam, wondering when the ‘soft peaks’ were going to appear into which I was to have begun adding sugar (which I wondered if was the right kind). I certainly agree with your appreciation of the videos, since I am totally right-brained. It has taken a while for me to accommodate the idea that what happens to the egg-whites on the one side has something to do with the flour on the other side. It wasn’t until I realized that if the egg-whites were too stiff, they couldn’t accommodate the flour. Then I realized that was why I had a lot of heavy, sticky flour mixture when I tried to incorporate it the two. I realize, this is the stuff of the neophyte. Fortunately, my mentors, Julie, Patrincia, Roxanne, and Cass, who sent me clip on egg-white stages so I could see, among others, seem to remember and share what things were like for them. One of these days I hope to be able to ‘pass it on’ as well. Julie got a kick out of it when I was whip-beating everything known to man. I hadn’t known what the paddle was for until I saw Rose use it in the orange chiffon clip! Anyway, Barbara, thanks for the reference!  >’ . ‘<  joan

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Posted: 07 June 2009 11:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Hi Sherrie - I have been out of town for two weeks, so my troubles have been shelved but not forgotten—but now am back and about to attack again. One thing I have learned is that I must follow directions, and do the instructions in order. I have realized mistakes like overheating the egg/sugar mixture; forgetting to change mixing speed of this egg mixture from high 5 min. back to medium for a more lengthy beating on medium—I have been advised for about 12-14 min until triple in volume, cool, thick and shiny. I have big problem with the over-folding incorporation of flour. [btw, did you take a “scant cup of egg mixture and thoroughly whisk it into beurre noisette”? i noted you saw beurre noisette on bottom of batter/bowl]. I realize that my technique with incorporation is really faulty, and needs much improvement. I have now changed focus to the white genoise for the reason that Hector has put forward some ‘rules’ for making the white genoise, and he remarks that they will help teach how to whip egg whites without use of cream of tartar. I know I am in desperate need of that technique, which will help me in all folding and incorporating. I have practiced this recipe once, and recognized I added sugar too late, too far into soft peaks, and then added the water too late into stiff peaks, since the whites quickly became too stiff and granular to take the flour, resulting in a stiff, lumpy batter that could never incorporate anything! You might want to take a look at Hector’s new ‘rules’ for white genoise if you are interested. Also, what I am going to do now, is make a list of all the suggestions Julie, Rozanne, Patrincia and Cass have given me in this thread, and re-check those techniques and suggestions against what I have done. For instance, adding a tablespoon or so of sugar to the flour to help it with incorporation with the batter. I have a baking stone now on the rack in the lower third of the oven. I have finally found some Baker’s Sugar. So, I am going to continue to play with the white genoise until I get a good one [soon I hope], then back to the classique, and then back to the au chocolat. Please keep intouch with your discoveries, and so will I.
>’ . ‘<  joan

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Posted: 08 June 2009 06:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Julie, and Sherrie - Okay, I am returning to the Cassique as you suggest, Julie. I plan to: Preheat oven to 350 with rack in lower third with stone. Prep chicago metallic 9x2” pan with Rose strips, bakers joy, parchment round. Weigh everything. Bring the egg [7 0z of eggs w/o shells/1/2c less 1T sugar] mixture to 90 degrees in a bowl set over pan of simmering water, while stirring constantly. I then plan to whip it 5 minutes on high and then reduce to medium speed for ten minutes to stabilize tripled volume. I will thoroughly whisk a scant cup of egg mixture into the warm 1.25 oz of beurre noisette&vanilla;and set aside. Will mix 1 T sugar into cake flour&cornstarch;and sift together [sugar to aid in incorpor of flour]. Then sift half onto egg mixture. Will use Prince balloon whisk, and gently, but rapidly, incorporate flour in two additions, first almost disappeared, second all disappeared, having run large spatula once or so across bottom to catch heavy flour on bottom. Lastly, fold in beurre noisette until just incorporated. Then place into pan, from center spread batter lightly across and around to even. place on bottom third on stone. do not open door on pain of death.—- Pray and drink the liqueur meant for the syrup.

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Posted: 09 June 2009 02:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Julie - 09 June 2009 11:38 AM

Joan, I read your plan and just wanted to offer a few thoughts:

You’re not going to bake the cake directly on a baking stone, right?  Bake it on a rack.  You can put a stone in the oven to help with eveness of baking and heat retention, but don’t set the cake pan directly on it.

You can bring the eggs/sugar to 110F before whipping, though 90 would probably work, especially if your kitchen is warm. 

I don’t use the spatula until the butter is in and I have taken a few passes with the whisk/butter.  And really just one, or two passes to check for stuff sitting at the bottom.  I do shake the batter out of the whisk a couple of times during the process.

And by all means, keep the Grand Marnier out!

Matthew, Joan was trying to follow all the directions from TCB, but still coming up short, so to speak (cake was working, but not as high as specifiied in the sidebar).  I was trying to give her a few more tips, most from Bakewise.  But perhaps you are right, there comes a time when simplicity is worth returning to.

Julie: Thanks, once again, for your amazing support and clarifications [and patience!].—- love the pun “coming up short”  rolleyes—- I think one of the beauties of this blog is that one is never condescended to; it’s bad enough to feel inadequate and frustrated, oneself, when you don’t ‘get it’ after several tries. I think I will be able to try this again Wednesday evening. Hope there is some GMarnier left afterwards!

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Posted: 09 June 2009 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Thanks, Matthew - I am coming to that conclusion and am losing some those initial jitters. One day I hope to be able to make your remarks to a newbie!

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Posted: 13 June 2009 04:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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HOORAY!!! Today I am celebrating my very first perfect Genoise Classique . . . I must report that she is gorgeous in every way. However, I am having a problem preventing my husband from running down the road with her to gobble her up!! She rose right to the top of the pan and stayed there. The YouTube of Rose on French Genoise helped so much in seeing the batter texture and color, and her technique in folding. I used the large Prince balloon, and my fingers at the last. The batter was just so light and heavenly. All the suggestions of you Julie, Patrincia, Rozanne, Cass were ringing in my ears this time and they all fell easily into place. I may syrup with strawberry cloud since I have some frozen puree. So, once again, many thanks to all of you who have brought me this far!  >’ . ‘<  joan   [where are you Cass?]

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Posted: 14 June 2009 12:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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smile  Aha - there you are, my learned friend Cass! So good to ‘see you.’ Thanks to you and Julie and Rozanne and Patrincia for your unflagging encouragement! I think I will return to the white genoise this week and see how I fare. Then, of course, the mousseline is next with all its delicious flavor possibilities. So I hope to have more success to share soon.  >’ . ‘<

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Posted: 15 May 2010 08:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Hector dear you mentioned thisRules:

1- Eggs should be beaten until it reached “triple” in volume, if you don’t get this volume is because they were not pre-warmed, warmed enough, or sugar was not superfine? I beat mines on a warm water bath, when it has reached double volume, I remove the water bath (or bring the water to room temp by adding ice cubes slowly).
2- Clarify the butter and dump the solids by passing the warmed butter thru a fine cloth.


What is it that you dump ice cubes in??????? the eggs?????????????? please inform me as i have never heard of this before…

also
If i use regular melted butter in the rose recipes for genoise is it ok??? i do not clarify it ..i do not brown it…is that why my cake turned rubbery????

TaRa

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Posted: 16 May 2010 09:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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ok dear julie will make the cake again and then i will answer your questions
Thank you so much for all your support
TaRa

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Posted: 16 May 2010 07:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Yes i have heard of that too from my sister who has been to baking school…she told me that too

She said start fast and end medium to get a less bubbly foam

But since Julie and the other pros here said ON HIGH FOR 5 MINUTES then i guess that rose’s recipes need that

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