1 of 3
1
Genoise Collapses
Posted: 27 September 2008 02:57 PM   [ Ignore ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1352
Joined  2008-09-27

I’ve tried making these genoise cupcakes 4 times, but each time they collapse in the oven. When I say “collapse”, I mean craters, “U” shaped.  I’m thinking my technique was pretty good the last time, at least. I had the mixer on for 7 minutes at setting 8. Could there be too much air in the batter? And that combined with baking powder?

Buttermilk birthday cupcakes
From Sherry Yard?s The Secrets of Baking
About 2 dozen cupcakes

1 cup all-purpose flour
1 tsp baking powder
1/2 tsp salt
1 cup sugar
4 large eggs
6 oz (1.5 sticks) unsalted butter, melted
1/2 cup buttermilk
2 tsp vanilla extract

Preheat the oven to 350 and prepare some muffin tins.

Triple-sift the flour, baking powder and salt and set aside. Fill a medium saucepan halfway with water and bring it to a simmer over medium heat. Combine sugar and eggs in the bowl of a standing mixer, or a mixing bowl that will fit into the saucepan. Put the bowl over the water, making sure the bottom of the bowl doesn?t touch the water. Stick in a thermometer and whisk steadily until the concoction is 110 degrees (2-3 minutes).

Remove bowl from heat and whip on high speed with standing or hand mixer 5-8 minutes, until the eggs have tripled in volume. The mixture will be thick and pale yellow, and form a ribbon when falling from a spatula. Turn the mixer speed to medium and ship for 2 more minutes, then add the melted butter.

Carefully fold in a third of the dry ingredients with a balloon whisk. Fold in a third of the buttermilk, then repeat those two steps until they?re used up. Blend in the vanilla.

Pour the batter into the muffin tins and bake 20 minutes, until the tops are golden brown and spring back when you touch them lightly. Let cupcakes cool in the pan on a rack for 5 minutes, then remove from the pan and let cool completely on the rack.

 Signature 

If error is corrected whenever it is recognized as such, the path of error is the path of truth.

—Hans Reichenbach

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 September 2008 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1419
Joined  2007-11-15

I am unfamiliar with this recipe, perhaps you opened the oven door?  genoise doesn’t like this, so better to judge doneness by color or smell.

TCB genoise has no baking powder.

 Signature 

http://myyellowkitchen.com/index-equipment-html/

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 September 2008 01:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1352
Joined  2008-09-27
hectorwong - 28 September 2008 04:21 PM

perhaps you opened the oven door?  genoise doesn’t like this, so better to judge doneness by color or smell.

TCB genoise has no baking powder.

I sure didn’t open the door the last time, but the results were essentially the same.  I reduced the baking powder by half, which may have helped a little.  I know the TCB doesn’t have baking powder….most don’t.  In fact, the other Genoise recipes in this book don’t have baking powder.  Someone suggested the author put the baking powder there to provide a dome, which genoise doesn’t do.  I thought that perhaps with so much sugar and butter, the recipe needed a bit extra lift.

After doing a lot of internet research, I’m thinking that the oven cycling might be a problem.  Others have discussed adding thermal mass to the oven, such as a pizza stone, to produce more consistent heat.  I will probably try that next.

BTW, the author of the book I mentioned, who is the pastry chef at Spago, said that after creating the egg foam at high speed, turn it down to medium for a couple of minutes will help stabilize the foam.  I haven’t seen that advice anywhere else.

Thanks

 Signature 

If error is corrected whenever it is recognized as such, the path of error is the path of truth.

—Hans Reichenbach

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 September 2008 02:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4783
Joined  2008-04-16

For a genoise, it seems like this recipe has a large amount/weight of ingredients folded into the eggs.  Six ounces of butter and the buttermilk is a lot, compared to Rose’s recipes.  Is the butter melted and are you folding it in as gently as possible? 

The baking powder could also be a problem, weakening the structure when you have a lot of heavy ingredients to support.  Maybe try reducing or omitting it?

The other thing could be a too-cold oven. 

Good Luck!

 Signature 

B&T Blog:  Cultured Butter Recipe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 September 2008 02:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1352
Joined  2008-09-27
Julie - 28 September 2008 05:44 PM

For a genoise, it seems like this recipe has a large amount/weight of ingredients folded into the eggs.  Six ounces of butter and the buttermilk is a lot, compared to Rose’s recipes.  Is the butter melted and are you folding it in as gently as possible?  The other thing could be a too-cold oven. 

Good Luck!

Agreed that it’s a lot of butter, but Rose said you can add up to 1/2 cup.  I’m adding the butter as the author suggested, although I’ve done it the traditional way, too.  The buttermilk does go beyond what other recipes do.  I’m folding with a whisk, so I don’t see how I could be more gentle.  And I do use an independent oven thermometer (two!) to verify the oven temperature.

It’s possible that the recipe is bad, but the author is an accomplished professional.  Still, the recipe could be in error or it might not be the recipe she uses professionally and is thus untested.  Or maybe she didn’t write the book, just slapped her name on it.  Who knows?


Thank you.

 Signature 

If error is corrected whenever it is recognized as such, the path of error is the path of truth.

—Hans Reichenbach

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 September 2008 02:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  632
Joined  2008-01-24

I wouldn’t use a whisk to fold. “Folding” should be done with a rubber spatula. You run the spatula down the outside of the bowl under and up the opposite side. This drags some of the ingredients up and over the egg whites.
Be that as it may I don’t think that is the problem. You would lose some volume from over folding. It sounds like your muffins are behaving like a classic souffle which deflates as soon as it is poked. Twice was enough for this recipe. There may be an error in the recipe etc. Genoise is a very delicate balance between egg and flour. Try one of Rose’s well tested recipes that is similar.

 Signature 

“This pizza is a symphony of flavors”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 September 2008 03:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2568
Joined  2007-11-15

Actually, there is a whisk by Matfer that Rose suggests using…. it’s a huge balloon whisk.  Search the blog for the info on it.

 Signature 

Come visit my blog at

http://butteryum.blogspot.com

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 September 2008 04:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1352
Joined  2008-09-27
Gene - 29 September 2008 05:35 PM

?Folding? should be done with a rubber spatula

Many, many cookbooks recommend a whisk, just as Rose does.  You don’t swish it around like normal, you just draw it through the mixture, then rotate the bowl 1/4 turn, then do it again, maybe 5 times.  It’s very effective.

I will probably give this recipe one more try, after increasing the thermal mass inside the oven.

 Signature 

If error is corrected whenever it is recognized as such, the path of error is the path of truth.

—Hans Reichenbach

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 September 2008 04:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  632
Joined  2008-01-24

I’ve tried all these new fangled ideas! Folding traditionalist I remain. LOL

 Signature 

“This pizza is a symphony of flavors”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 September 2008 04:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1076
Joined  2007-11-15

I have to agree about the whisk—I find a spatula deflates the batter more, so I’m definitely a whisk person.

The baking powder wouldn’t cause them to dome—in fact, it would have the opposite effect as baking powder weakens and tenderizes.

My sense about a lot of these “professional” cookbooks is they just reduce their commercial recipes to a fraction of the size and probably don’t bother to test them using domestic equipment.

Charles—did the prose make this recipe sound especially appealing?  I would have given up long ago because the recipe seems so unusual.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 September 2008 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  632
Joined  2008-01-24

Wow! There must be a special wrist flip at the end of the stroke that I am missing. tongue wink Or I just haven’t practiced enough. I did two souffles side by side once and the spatula folded one had at least a half inch more loft than the whisk folded one.

 Signature 

“This pizza is a symphony of flavors”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 September 2008 01:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1352
Joined  2008-09-27
Matthew - 29 September 2008 07:34 PM

Charles—did the prose make this recipe sound especially appealing?  I would have given up long ago because the recipe seems so unusual.

I got mentally stuck on these cupcakes because it seemed easier to experiment with several small cakes rather that one large one.  And I hate to give up.  This is my first genoise, by the way, so I was inclined to think it my fault.

However, I made them again tonight, with one difference:  I only poured three cupcakes; the rest of the batter I poured into a 9” cake pan.  The cup cakes still fell slightly, but the one in the cake pan was perfectly flat!

Could it be somehow the fault of the foil baking cups?  Since I was using foil, I didn’t put them in a muffin pan.  So the batter oozed a bit over the side.  Maybe that’s causing the center to deflate?

Anyway, I think I’ll try Rose’s recipe next. If I can get one recipe to work right, I’ll feel encouraged.

 Signature 

If error is corrected whenever it is recognized as such, the path of error is the path of truth.

—Hans Reichenbach

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 September 2008 04:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  632
Joined  2008-01-24

I hate to give up also when I think something should work.
Indeed Watson I think you are on the right track. The foil may allow the outside to cook too quickly leaving the inside less stable. If you are up for another go I would try a traditional cupcake pan with paper liners.
So do you like the buttermilk in this recipe?

 Signature 

“This pizza is a symphony of flavors”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 September 2008 10:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1352
Joined  2008-09-27
Gene - 30 September 2008 07:19 AM

So do you like the buttermilk in this recipe?

I don’t know….I’ve only eaten one of them and that’s the only genoise that I’ve ever eaten (to my knowledge).  grin  But it sure *sounds* good!  Funny, it’s mostly egg, but it tastes pretty much like cake.

 Signature 

If error is corrected whenever it is recognized as such, the path of error is the path of truth.

—Hans Reichenbach

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2008 11:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4783
Joined  2008-04-16

Hmmm, very interesting that this recipe worked in a 9” layer but not in cupcakes, since cupcakes normally need less structure than a layer, not more.  That could mean that the cupcakes are getting underbaked somehow, or similarly that the layer pan is darker, was in a hotter spot in the oven, cooked more thoroughly/longer, etc.  For Rose’s genoise, they are considered done when they start to shrink from the sides of the pan while still in the oven. 

Let us know if you ever get this to work, I’m curious about it!

 Signature 

B&T Blog:  Cultured Butter Recipe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 October 2008 12:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1352
Joined  2008-09-27
Julie - 01 October 2008 02:19 PM

Hmmm, very interesting that this recipe worked in a 9” layer but not in cupcakes, since cupcakes normally need less structure than a layer, not more.  That could mean that the cupcakes are getting underbaked somehow, or similarly that the layer pan is darker, was in a hotter spot in the oven, cooked more thoroughly/longer, etc.  For Rose’s genoise, they are considered done when they start to shrink from the sides of the pan while still in the oven. 

Let us know if you ever get this to work, I’m curious about it!

I tried it a sixth, and final, time, using a muffin pan with liners.  The result:  absolute disaster.  It cratered much earlier and much deeper than ever before.  I watched them fall about 1/2 way through the baking cycle, whereas the time before, they didn’t sink until maybe 18 minutes.  Dark colored muffin pan made them rise more quickly?

I conclude this recipe doesn’t work, or at least doesn’t work for cupcakes.  Did I mention that I found a website where someone else made the same recipe?  Hers cratered too, but it didn’t seem to bother her.

 Signature 

If error is corrected whenever it is recognized as such, the path of error is the path of truth.

—Hans Reichenbach

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 3
1
Back to top