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Genoise Collapses
Posted: 08 November 2008 06:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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~FRESHKID - 08 November 2008 10:13 PM

CHALES T:
  Good afternoon to you. Thank you for your quick reply. I am slightly confused. Did you wish me to reply to your response. Enjoy the rest of the week-end?????

Please do, if you have some insight to share.  You mentioned a 33% limit of fat to flour, and I’m sure you have some reason for that number, but I was pointing out that many recipes that do work *under some circumstances* contain a much higher percentage fat that this.  It’s not clear to me that the fat to flour ratio is a key measurement when you have other structure builders such as eggs.  What is the source of the 33% number?

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Posted: 10 November 2008 01:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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CHARLES~T
  Good morning. Charles I will try to answer your question about my reasoning to mention the 33% ratio is simply this. As you know Charles, in Europe the pastry bakers there do not as a rule employ butter in their sponge cakes. Butter is used in Canada & America for flavor purpose only It is not a requirement..it can be omitted.. In other words my friend you can omit the butter & your failed baked product would have baked. You can employ up to 50% of the butter to the flour in a sponge cake ...however, whereas that is a lot of butter there is a secret trick in doing that proceedure so that that cake does not collapse. I will not discuss that proceedure as you are not going to bake this recipe any longer. I chose 37 1/2% butter for your recipe because I knew it would work. Also my friend, I didn’t pick up on this but your recipe calls for the warm melted butter to be mixed in the batter to early. It is always mixed in at the very very end. Then quickly panned & placed in your oven.  One more thing Charles consider placing your muffin pan in a sheet pan before placing same in the oven.
  Good luck in your baking Charles & if you should have any other inquiries about baking science or proceedures feel free to post them to me. However Charles ,there are proceedures that I do not share. But I do enjoy helping bakers in solving their baking mis~haps. Enjoy the rest of the day.

  ~FRESHKID.

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Posted: 10 November 2008 07:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Charles, I was so stumped by your problem that it is now my problem, too!  That is to say, I baked these up this afternoon and also had some falling in the middle, just like you.

For the record, I used 142 grams of flour, because Sherry says she uses the dip and sweep method.  I weighed 200g of sugar, and I’ll say that much sugar in with the yolks changed their texture significantly from what Rose’s recipes produce.  I followed the recipe exactly, with the exception that I left my convection fan running with the oven at 350 (confirmed with an oven thermometer), as normally the main problem with a too-hot oven for genoise is over browning, which I figured I could risk. 

Well, a hot oven did not save these.  Four of the twenty-four had flat tops when I removed them from the oven (the rest were somewhat sunken).  After cooling, every last one had a sunken middle.  The average depression was 3/8” from the tallest part of the rim.  Maybe they only work with resturant-quality equipment? I don’t usually have problems with Genoise, it is my favorite category of cake in TCB!

I must say, that the taste of these is nowhere near as good as Rose’s sour cream butter cake, which bakes up beautifully as cupcakes.  And neither do they have the lovely texture advantage of sponge cakes.  So, I really don’t see the point in trying to fix these.  For a fuller-flavored version, use the sour cream cake; for a wonderful light, fluffy-spongy texture, uses Rose’s chiffon (my favorite is with double the vanilla, 4 tsp, and all nut oil in place of the safflower- toasted almond oil is lovely).  Bake chiffon cupcakes for about 15” or until internal temp is at 185.  Half a recipe makes 20-24, depending on how full you fill them.

Point taken about the chiffon nomenclature, it appears to be some sort of hybrid. 

Have you baked any other recipes from this book?  What did you think?  Which ones would you make again?

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Posted: 10 November 2008 10:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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BTW Julie, I have never tried baking chiffon batter as cupcakes, do they do well?  Or do they shrink from their liners?

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Posted: 10 November 2008 10:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Julie - 10 November 2008 11:45 PM

Charles, I was so stumped by your problem that it is now my problem, too!  That is to say, I baked these up this afternoon and also had some falling in the middle, just like you.

Thank you, I feel so much better!

I used 142 grams of flour, because Sherry says she uses the dip and sweep method.

I think I used 130, because that’s what I get when I use dip and sweep.  I was thinking about bumping up to 140, so now I know that won’t work, either.

So, I really don’t see the point in trying to fix these.

I suppose you’re right;  I’m not sure why people choose Genoise anyway. Strong structure?  The versatility of being able to add a variety of syrups to a plain cake?

Have you baked any other recipes from this book?  What did you think?  Which ones would you make again?

I’ve made her marble cake, ginger snaps, coffee cake (brioche), and chocolate chip cookies, which were good and I would make again.

The directions on the Deep, Dark, Chocolate Torte didn’t match the picture, though, and I had to make some guesses and double the recipe.  People loved it, but I probably wouldn’t make it again.  The pralines were a disaster, though, because the instructions were poor, in my opinion.  And then these cupcakes.  grin  Shirley Corriher in “BakeWise” praises Sherry’s Croissants, which I haven’t made yet, but the picture looks awesome.

So perhaps Sherry, or her editor, was just a bit careless putting this book together.  Well, I’ll put these behind me.  Time to move on to puff pastry!

Julie, thank you much for your work on this.  Having someone confirm what you know is as important as having them point out your errors.

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Posted: 10 November 2008 10:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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~FRESHKID - 10 November 2008 05:00 PM

however, whereas that is a lot of butter there is a secret trick in doing that proceedure so that that cake does not collapse. I will not discuss that proceedure as you are not going to bake this recipe any longer. I chose 37 1/2% butter for your recipe because I knew it would work..

Thank you FreshKid.  Even though I am not going to make these anymore, I’m sure I would find the secret trick very educational and help me understand baking chemistry better.  If you are able to share it, please do!  But if you can’t, I understand.

Thanks

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Posted: 10 November 2008 11:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Little Island, chiffon does shrink a little as it cools, but it doesn’t separate from its liner.  What I’ve found so far is that being very careful not to overbake them keeps shrinkage to a minimum.  For me, the wonderful texture makes it worth it.

Let’s see, another small tip is that if you are making a half recipe, it works out nearly perfectly by weight to use 4 XL eggs (separated) instead of 3.5 L yolks and 5 L whites.

Charles, I’m glad I could help, though it was only to confirm your result.  I was really curious about the recipe so I’m glad I tried it. 

My daughter has been requesting croissants for a while now, perhaps it’s time I also moved on to puff pastry!

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Posted: 23 November 2008 10:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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I just baked my first chiffon cake last week and was very pleased with the result. Julie, thanks for pointing out that they can be baked as cupcakes too; will try that next!

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Posted: 07 December 2008 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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If anyone is interested in trying this recipe again…

Try reducing the buttermilk. It seems a little much to me for a sponge cake. Reducing by 1 or 2 TBS may be all that’s required (with all the butter in this recipe, the moisture should not be affected).

If you find reducing the buttermilk affects the flavor to much, try adding an extra egg.

The batter needs more strength, which is why it’s falling. To strengthen a cake you either: reduce the sugar, add more flour, reduce the liquid, or add more eggs. I probably would not try fiddling with the sugar or flour, as that could affect the texture of the cake too much.

Has anyone tried to look for a published errata sheet for this book? Maybe there’s a misprint in the ingredients list…(we know that happens).

Another thing to consider is the altitude of location of the baker making this recipe. Cakes can be affected at altitudes as little as 2500ft., especially sponge cakes—which generally rise higher, but also more rapidly, and therefor need extra support in the batter. If you live at a higher altitude, you may not even need the baking powder—just relying on the lifting power of the eggs may fix the problem.

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Posted: 08 December 2008 01:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Hi Roxanne:

Thanks for the thoughts.  My elevation is only about 500 ft MSL, so that can’t be a problem for me.  Probably some of the things you suggested could make this recipe work, but after making them six times, I’m reluctant to go through all the effort again.  I’ll save your ideas for the NEXT cake that falls.

grin


Thank you.

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Posted: 10 December 2008 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Roxanne, thanks so much for your input, I love information like that!

I tried this recipe in hopes that it could provide the beautiful, intense flavor of a tangy buttermilk/sour cream butter cake with the delightfully light texture of a genoise. 

Unfortunately, it fell short on both counts.  The taste is not as good as Rose’s sour cream butter cake (posted on this blog), and the texture comes out oily and not light/springy like a genoise.

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